This is about circ and facebook, so I better put it here..

[Kim]

So, I borrowed a great post from DS about the top 10 reasons not to circ yur sons...

and someone commented this after reading it.

I deleted their reply on my page because damn that was waaaaay TMI.

"eww but it looks ugly - lol
and my DH's penis head has NOOO problem w/being sensitive!!! lol again...
i dont care where his foreskin goes just get it off him!! eww
actually co goes to the Dr this Friday to get MORE removed cuz they didnt take
enough off and I hate it...
and my DH doesnt have any resentment to his mother for getting his done...
Just each individual personal preference..."
"oh and add to that the referral I am taking to the urologist from the ped. says
the reasoning for more to come off is REACCURING yeast infections due to the
EXTRA skin...which meds have not helped cuz it spends more time wet in diaper
and curled up then out n exposed..."

Yeah, I deleted that poop.:twitch: I mean I know that my opinion isn't the same for everyone, but please don't tell me my kids penis is ugly and say ewww and go on to tell me that your DH's sensation is just fine. fo realz yo.

[hippydippymama]

:puke: That is disgusting. Yes, cut off part of your son's penis because YOU THINK IT LOOKS BETTER. And let's give our daughters boob jobs because our DHs think THAT looks better.

I'm so glad people are justifying genital surgery because they don't like the way their baby's junk looks.

[4chixmama]

Eww, why would it matter to a mother what her son's stuff looks like?

[Jenny81]

Eww, why would it matter to a mother what her son's stuff looks like?

Totally agree.

[MamaToBe84]

well, i am anti circ, but even if i wasnt, i cant imagine ANYONE, anti-circ or not, thinking that person was sane or correct. How ridiculous.

[CountryBarbie225]

Thats so wrong!! I would be pretty po'ed if someone said that my sons penis was ugly!! If its "supposed" to be cut off then why in the world are they born with it? I'm sure they don't have an answer for that.
~~~~~~~
Oh and I want to add that while I am anti-circ now....my older boys are both circ'ed and after doing MUCH MUCH MUCH research I totally regret my decision to have them circ'ed.

[JeDeeLenae]

:puke: That is disgusting. Yes, cut off part of your son's penis because YOU THINK IT LOOKS BETTER. And let's give our daughters boob jobs because our DHs think THAT looks better.

I'm so glad people are justifying genital surgery because they don't like the way their baby's junk looks.
lol, i agree!

[Deadbeat Daddy]

umm eww - views or not, did she really need to mention her DH and all that? That's gross!

[Snangel]

Unfortunately people will do some pretty crazy things to justify genital mutilation. This is how this continues. I would however urge you to send her some information (I can give you some if you wish, or you can go back to herpe ville and grab my stuff its all there) Don't expect anything, but if you do nothing you will always wonder. So send her some info regarding the harms or recirc, and circ itself, and perhaps some info on why this myth is perpetuated.If you need any help let me know.

[lawgirl]

I think her reply sounds very childish and uneducated. With that said, I circ'd my son and find it silly when people call it genital mutilation. Just as I don't judge others for not circ'ing, I ask that I not be judged for choosing to circ. There are pros/cons for BOTH choices. It helps to remember that in a debate.

[hippydippymama]

I think her reply sounds very childish and uneducated. With that said, I circ'd my son and find it silly when people call it genital mutilation. Just as I don't judge others for not circ'ing, I ask that I not be judged for choosing to circ. There are pros/cons for BOTH choices. It helps to remember that in a debate.

Well, to be perfectly fair, one of the definitions of mutilation is removal of a body part, i.e. amputation. Circumcision is amputation of the foreskin. I agree that it is a harsh word, but it's not untrue.

[PrincessPurple]

I think her reply sounds very childish and uneducated. With that said, I circ'd my son and find it silly when people call it genital mutilation. Just as I don't judge others for not circ'ing, I ask that I not be judged for choosing to circ. There are pros/cons for BOTH choices. It helps to remember that in a debate.

:yeahthat:

[HRM's mom]

I am just glad I had a girl this time! Dh would kill me if he knew I posted this but his circ did not turn out well. I am almost positive his mom did not take care of it the right way and it grew back together!! I honestly can see how this would happen since she had 4 small children at home and than had DH and his twin sister to take care of for a grand total of 6, but Damn you had two other boys you should know what you are doing!! This has been a huge problem for him as he is afraid to let anyone see it and he keeps talking about getting it fixed. Honestly I do not think it looks that bad, I mean lets face it they are not really that pretty in the first place, but the poor guy is sure people think it is weird.

[lawgirl]

Well, to be perfectly fair, one of the definitions of mutilation is removal of a body part, i.e. amputation. Circumcision is amputation of the foreskin. I agree that it is a harsh word, but it's not untrue.

I think it is meant to stir the pot and that is my problem with the term. Piercing a child's ears would also fall under that category (and I disagree with that), but I would never enter a piercing thread and shout about genital mutilation. It just isn't the thing to do when you are talking about personal decisions having to do with child raising. I know that I made the right decision for our son and I don't need another mother making a sad attempt at trying to make me feel guilt. I just don't need it.

I'm cranky today. Sorry.

[HRM's mom]

Oh and on another note how does she now if her DH would feel better not having been circ since he himself has not idea? I have always wondered this so I am just throwing it out there.

[lawgirl]

I think it is meant to stir the pot and that is my problem with the term. Piercing a child's ears would also fall under that category (and I disagree with that), but I would never enter a piercing thread and shout about genital mutilation. It just isn't the thing to do when you are talking about personal decisions having to do with child raising. I know that I made the right decision for our son and I don't need another mother making a sad attempt at trying to make me feel guilt. I just don't need it.

I'm cranky today. Sorry.

Edited to add: I meant to say shout about "bodily mutilation". Genital mutilation has nothing to do with ear piercing.

[hippydippymama]

Edited to add: I meant to say shout about "bodily mutilation". Genital mutilation has nothing to do with ear piercing.

I agree, I don't like it when people compare the two. FWIW I don't think ear piercing is amputation/mutilation either as it isn't removing a body part or impairing the function of said part.

It's all good.

[Katiebear]

Is any one else squigged out about how she's all "I leave my baby in a wet diaper"? I mean, I'm not changing Kitten every 15 minutes, but if I notice she's wet, I change her, you know? Ew on THAT.

[Snangel]

Ear piercing and circ have nothing really to do with one another. FTR I do not believe in either. I think they both alter the childs body without the consent of the bodies owner.
The difference though between the two is this...(of course jmo blah blah)
Ear peircing is not permanant. It also does not have the same degree of risk. The risks of circ include but are not limited to


Excessive bleeding
Infection
Complications from anesthesia
Surgical mistakes, including loss of glans and loss of entire penis
Death

Also see this link, but warning GRAFIC PICTURES
http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/

Is ear peircing mutilation, yah I think it is. Do I defend that position like I do circ, no I don't because of the degree of what we are talking about.

A better comparision is MGM to FGM. My question is this...why are our baby girls afforded rights and protection of their genitals and our male babies are not.

[HRM's mom]

Ear piercing and circ have nothing really to do with one another. FTR I do not believe in either. I think they both alter the childs body without the consent of the bodies owner.
The difference though between the two is this...(of course jmo blah blah)
Ear peircing is not permanant. It also does not have the same degree of risk. The risks of circ include but are not limited to


Excessive bleeding
Infection
Complications from anesthesia
Surgical mistakes, including loss of glans and loss of entire penis
Death

Also see this link, but warning GRAFIC PICTURES
http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/

Is ear peircing mutilation, yah I think it is. Do I defend that position like I do circ, no I don't because of the degree of what we are talking about.

A better comparision is MGM to FGM. My question is this...why are our baby girls afforded rights and protection of their genitals and our male babies are not.

Ok those pictures just sealed the deal for me no circ for my sons! (if I have any)

[Snangel]

Ok those pictures just sealed the deal for me no circ for my sons! (if I have any)

I am glad you can see that. If you wish for more information just ask.

[MisanthropeKitty]

i dont agree that mgm and fgm are the same... not at all. if fgm involved removing the hood instead of the clit then yeah maybe...

[lawgirl]

Ear piercing and circ have nothing really to do with one another. FTR I do not believe in either. I think they both alter the childs body without the consent of the bodies owner.
The difference though between the two is this...(of course jmo blah blah)
Ear peircing is not permanant. It also does not have the same degree of risk. The risks of circ include but are not limited to


Excessive bleeding
Infection
Complications from anesthesia
Surgical mistakes, including loss of glans and loss of entire penis
Death

Also see this link, but warning GRAFIC PICTURES
http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/

Is ear peircing mutilation, yah I think it is. Do I defend that position like I do circ, no I don't because of the degree of what we are talking about.

A better comparision is MGM to FGM. My question is this...why are our baby girls afforded rights and protection of their genitals and our male babies are not.

What about the benefits of circ'ing. You have a lovely list of risks, but you fail to show the pros/cons of both sides. They do exist and cannot be glossed over. Here is a decent, neutral, article outlining pros and cons.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16776931/

[Snangel]

i dont agree that mgm and fgm are the same... not at all. if fgm involved removing the hood instead of the clit then yeah maybe...

There are 4 types of FGM...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

Note that all forms are illegal.

What about the benefits of circ'ing. You have a lovely list of risks, but you fail to show the pros/cons of both sides. They do exist and cannot be glossed over. Here is a decent, neutral, article outlining pros and cons.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16776931/

The risks out run the proposed and not proven "benefits"

[mckomet]

that was kind of odd to be posted on your facebook...

[JeDeeLenae]

This is just from wiki, but I seriously can't compare this to a US male circumcision.

Medical consequences

Among practising cultures, FGC is most commonly performed between the ages of four and eight, but can take place at any age from infancy to adolescence. Prohibition has led to FGC going underground, at times with people who have had no medical training performing the cutting without anaesthetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaesthetic), sterilisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_%28surgical_procedure%29), or the use of proper medical instruments. The procedure, when performed without any anaesthetic, can lead to death through shock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_%28circulatory%29) from immense pain or excessive bleeding. The failure to use sterile medical instruments may lead to infections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infections).
Other serious long term health effects are also common. These include urinary and reproductive tract infections, caused by obstructed flow of urine and menstrual blood, various forms of scarring and infertility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infertility). Epidermal inclusion cysts may form and expand, particularly in procedure affecting the clitoris. These cysts can grow over time and can become infected, requiring medical attention such as drainage.[72] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#cite_note-71) The first time having sexual intercourse will often be extremely painful, and infibulated women will need the labia majora to be opened, to allow their partner access to the vagina. This second cut, sometimes performed by the partner with a knife, can cause other complications to arise.
A June 2006 study by the WHO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization) has cast doubt on the safety of genital cutting of any kind.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#cite_note-WHO-2006-10-02-0) This study was conducted on a cohort of 28,393 women attending delivery wards at 28 obstetric centers in areas of Burkina Faso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burkina_Faso), Ghana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghana), Nigeria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigeria), Kenya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya), Senegal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senegal) and The Sudan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sudan). A high proportion of these mothers had undergone FGC. According to the WHO criteria, all types of FGC were found to pose an increased risk of death to the baby (15% for Type I, 32% for Type II, and 55% for Type III). Mothers with FGC Type III were also found to be 30% more at risk for cesarean sections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesarean_section) and had a 70% increase in postpartum haemorrhage compared to women without FGC. Estimating from these results, and doing a rough population estimate of mothers in Africa with FGC, an additional 10 to 20 per thousand babies in Africa die during delivery as a result of the mothers having undergone genital cutting.


I can see how the comparison may help the case against circ, but how many people really can see the two things and think they are similar?

[MisanthropeKitty]

i stay out of circ debates for this reason... ftr, i know a woman from africa who had fgm and she is ok with it, it was part of her culture to have it done and she didnt know women DIDNT get it done until she came to america

[Heather]

I guess my reaction is that if you post something like that in a place where people can comment, you have to expect some comments from people who circ or from people who have different opinions form yours or from some people who are just messing with you.
I have seen a crazy amount of misinformation and comments that border on hysteria in online anti circ threads and circ debates.

I dunno I guess the biggest thing to me is unsolicited advice esp on parenting is pretty much never followed or appreciated so.........it kind of feels a bit like religious missionaries coming to my door to convert me. If I was looking for a new religion, I would seek it out. I don't really want to talk to them when they just show up at my door.

[lawgirl]

There are 4 types of FGM...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

Note that all forms are illegal.



The risks out run the proposed and not proven "benefits"

In your mind.

[My3Monkeys]

What about the benefits of circ'ing. You have a lovely list of risks, but you fail to show the pros/cons of both sides. They do exist and cannot be glossed over. Here is a decent, neutral, article outlining pros and cons.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16776931/


From your article:
Drastic measure?
Reiss agrees that it’s true that babies with foreskins do have a higher number of urinary tract infections and possibly other problems, but he says these are usually easily treated with antibiotics. “We don’t cut an eyelid off because we have a sty,” he says.
Furthermore, penile cancer is such a rare disorder that it also does not make sense to surgically remove the foreskin in order to prevent it, says Reiss. He draws a parallel to breast cancer: “We would never routinely give girls mastectomies just so they don’t someday have breast cancer.” And, of course, condoms can help prevent many STDs.

[mommyluvs222]

wow! :speechless:

[My3Monkeys]

that was kind of odd to be posted on your facebook...

I have to agree here. If you put it out there for everyone to read, you've got to know that not everyone will be agreeing with you. Her response was a little weird, but you kind of set yourself up there.

[hippydippymama]

This is just from wiki, but I seriously can't compare this to a US male circumcision.



I can see how the comparison may help the case against circ, but how many people really can see the two things and think they are similar?

That is Female Genital Cutting which refers to partial or total removal of the outer genitals. It is only one, and the MOST extreme and most RARE, form of female circumcision.

Girls are still circumcised in other countries the same way our boys are here. The hood of the clitoris is removed. This is certainly not as bad as FGC but if anyone were to suggest that you should do ANYTHING to your baby daughter's clit, you'd surely be outraged. Yet no one blinks an eye when the same thing is done to a boy.

THAT is the comparison here.

[JeDeeLenae]

That is Female Genital Cutting which refers to partial or total removal of the outer genitals. It is only one, and the MOST extreme and most RARE, form of female circumcision.

Girls are still circumcised in other countries the same way our boys are here. The hood of the clitoris is removed. This is certainly not as bad as FGC but if anyone were to suggest that you should do ANYTHING to your baby daughter's clit, you'd surely be outraged. Yet no one blinks an eye when the same thing is done to a boy.

THAT is the comparison here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

That's the original page. It encompasses all that stuff. What I'm saying is that this is what people think of when they think of female circumcision. Most people will not easily equate the too and then it throws off the argument because they still see the two things as separate. Especially if you have a circumcised son already, the two just don't seem to relate. So, by using mutilation, this is what people's head turns to, and it's hard to get them to see that male circumcision can fall under that term too.

[hippydippymama]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

That's the original page. It encompasses all that stuff. What I'm saying is that this is what people think of when they think of female circumcision. Most people will not easily equate the too and then it throws off the argument because they still see the two things as separate. Especially if you have a circumcised son already, the two just don't seem to relate. So, by using mutilation, this is what people's head turns to, and it's hard to get them to see that male circumcision can fall under that term too.

Ah, okay. You're right. Reading the page I see now what yuo mean.

But you make a good point...most people aren't aware that FGM/FGC is anything but whacking off the entire vulva and everything else around it. Of COURSE peopel are horrified to think about that and think it's an unfair comparison to male circumcision. That'd be tantamount to cutting off the entire penis. People need to know, though, that it's not right no matter what sex the kid is (IMO).

[lawgirl]

From your article:

Did you read the entire article? I admitted that the article presented two-sides, so your sharing one snippet doesn't accomplish much. There was much in the article that was clearly pro-circ, but, of course, non-circ'ing individuals put blinders on to the health benefits. Oh well. At least I acknowledge that both sides have a leg to stand on.

[Kim]

I have to agree here. If you put it out there for everyone to read, you've got to know that not everyone will be agreeing with you. Her response was a little weird, but you kind of set yourself up there.
Oh yeah, I know....Im fine with other peoples opinions and choices, but to tell me that it's ugly and tell me her DH's sensation is just fine is weird.

[Suzanne]

I'm not looking to join the circ or not circ debate, but wowzer, those statements make pro-circ mamas look WHACKO!

[Suzanne]

Did that come out right?

[Katiebear]

Did that come out right?

I think so! :)

[Ry&I'sMom]

I agree that if you post something like that on your facebook that you should expect to get comments from the opposing side...its a very hot topic. HOWEVER...her comments were just very juvenile and uneducated. It isn't like she said 'well, did you know (insert pro-circ debate here). What she said was just stupid. lol...sorry...and, no, I'm not saying pro-circ was stupid, I'm just saying that what she said had no value to anyone. Just my $.02.

FWIW - my son is circ'd, but it was against my wishes. Dh and I did not agree on the issue. Idid my research and did NOT want him circ'd. We fought about it from the moment we found out he was a boy until right before he was born. Ultimately, I gave in and I greatly regret that decision. :(

[Heather]

Oh yeah, I know....Im fine with other peoples opinions and choices, but to tell me that it's ugly and tell me her DH's sensation is just fine is weird.

I don't really see it as whacko-- except that it's on FB. Is't she responding to one of the arguments you've brought up ? how bad it is for men, decreases sensation, then it makes sense to look at adult men and see if there seem to be any problems with that way right?

I don't know a single man IRL who is circ'd and has an issue with it or any problems with sensation or function. In fact I don't know any that don't orgasm and ejaculate every. single. time. they have sex. I wish women were so lucky! So if I'm looking at a procedure people are telling me is so awful, it's mutilation etc and I look at what a large group of so called mutilated men are like, that's a valid point in my mind-- wether you end up being for or against kwim? Obviously that's just one point of many to consider.

[lawgirl]

I don't really see it as whacko-- except that it's on FB. Is't she responding to one of the arguments you've brought up ? how bad it is for men, decreases sensation, then it makes sense to look at adult men and see if there seem to be any problems with that way right?

I don't know a single man IRL who is circ'd and has an issue with it or any problems with sensation or function. In fact I don't know any that don't orgasm and ejaculate every. single. time. they have sex. I wish women were so lucky! So if I'm looking at a procedure people are telling me is so awful, it's mutilation etc and I look at what a large group of so called mutilated men are like, that's a valid point in my mind-- wether you end up being for or against kwim? Obviously that's just one point of many to consider.

This is a valid point. I don't know any man who regrets his circumcision. I actually know of at least one adult man who was circ'd after the age of sixty and is pleased with his decision to do so.

[Heather]

This is a valid point. I don't know any man who regrets his circumcision. I actually know of at least one adult man who was circ'd after the age of sixty and is pleased with his decision to do so.



My dh's thoughts on the whole thing is "seems like a lot of fuss over a little peice of skin" LOL This seems to be a much bigger deal to the Moms (wether they're for or against) of the world than anyone else-- at least in the circles I travel.

[hippydippymama]

This is a valid point. I don't know any man who regrets his circumcision. I actually know of at least one adult man who was circ'd after the age of sixty and is pleased with his decision to do so.

I know several who are very unhappy about it. If men did not care about being circumcised, there would be no market for restoration devices.

[clothbaby]

I don't really see it as whacko-- except that it's on FB. Is't she responding to one of the arguments you've brought up ? how bad it is for men, decreases sensation, then it makes sense to look at adult men and see if there seem to be any problems with that way right?

I don't know a single man IRL who is circ'd and has an issue with it or any problems with sensation or function. In fact I don't know any that don't orgasm and ejaculate every. single. time. they have sex. I wish women were so lucky! So if I'm looking at a procedure people are telling me is so awful, it's mutilation etc and I look at what a large group of so called mutilated men are like, that's a valid point in my mind-- wether you end up being for or against kwim? Obviously that's just one point of many to consider.

My brother does he thinks its barbaric - he has totally chewed my mother out for doing it - and has jumped anyone in our family who even started to question me not circ'ing my son !

[Heather]

I know several who are very unhappy about it. If men did not care about being circumcised, there would be no market for restoration devices.

I had never heard of a restoration procedure or device until I joined DS and I worked in a place that did urology sugeries.
Maybe we need to do a poll of our sig others :D

[MamaKat]

Thats an odd thing to be posted on facebook. Yes, we circed our son. No we did not regret our decision. He turned out fine. It was ultimately DH's decision and I don't look down on people who choose not to do it. I have never met a man who has regretted it nor a man who regretted not having it done.

[hippydippymama]

I had never heard of a restoration procedure or device until I joined DS and I worked in a place that did urology sugeries.
Maybe we need to do a poll of our sig others :D

I wouldn't doubt that most of our circed SOs don't care about being circed. They have no idea what being intact is like, so what can they compare it to? If I'd been born with only one arm I'd never know what it was like to have two. If I had my arm removed in adulthood you bet I would want it back!

If men want to be circumcised they should do it when they are legal adults, when they can make the choice for themselves. I am absolutely against performing it on babies.

[urchin_grey]

Wow. That's a real winner there, I tell you. View totally aside, she sounds like an idiot.

i stay out of circ debates for this reason... ftr, i know a woman from africa who had fgm and she is ok with it, it was part of her culture to have it done and she didnt know women DIDNT get it done until she came to america

And that's exactly how the majority of American men feel, because they don't know any different... Yet while we'd feel sorry for the woman mentioned above, we (general) would laugh at a man that was mourning the loss of his foreskin. :(

FWIW, there really is no proven benefit to routine circ and this is why there is not one medical association on the planet that recommends (routine) circ. I mean sure, if your DS is 50 and becomes one of the very few that get penile cancer, then there would be a benefit to removing the foreskin at that point. But honestly, even if I could look into the future and see that DS got penile cancer in adulthood, I still wouldn't circ him now, just as I wouldn't remove a daughter's breastbuds if I looked into the future and saw that she got breast cancer. Why make your kid go their entire life missing that body part instead of leaving it alone until something happens - if anything ever happens at all?

This is a valid point. I don't know any man who regrets his circumcision. I actually know of at least one adult man who was circ'd after the age of sixty and is pleased with his decision to do so.

Then you haven't met my son's father.

There are also quite a few on youtube, myspace, and the circ forums on mothering.com, and any of the restoration websites out there.

[5LilMonkeys]

This is such a personal choice I dont see why one would look down on another for doing it/not doing it. All 4 of my boys are circ'd and I dont regret it one bit.

[clothbaby]

Wow. That's a real winner there, I tell you. View totally aside, she sounds like an idiot.



And that's exactly how the majority of American men feel, because they don't know any different... Yet while we'd feel sorry for the woman mentioned above, we (general) would laugh at a man that was mourning the loss of his foreskin. :(

FWIW, there really is no proven benefit to routine circ and this is why there is not one medical association on the planet that recommends (routine) circ. I mean sure, if your DS is 50 and becomes one of the very few that get penile cancer, then there would be a benefit to removing the foreskin at that point. But honestly, even if I could look into the future and see that DS got penile cancer in adulthood, I still wouldn't circ him now, just as I wouldn't remove a daughter's breastbuds if I looked into the future and saw that she got breast cancer. Why make your kid go their entire life missing that body part instead of leaving it alone until something happens - if anything ever happens at all?



Then you haven't met my son's father.

There are also quite a few on youtube, myspace, and the circ forums on mothering.com, and any of the restoration websites out there.

I totally agree with this !

An ER doctor recommended me circ'ing my son to prevent infection :speechless:.. I asked him if he would recommend cutting his ears off if they got infected too !

[hippydippymama]

FWIW, there really is no proven benefit to routine circ and this is why there is not one medical association on the planet that recommends (routine) circ. I mean sure, if your DS is 50 and becomes one of the very few that get penile cancer, then there would be a benefit to removing the foreskin at that point. But honestly, even if I could look into the future and see that DS got penile cancer in adulthood, I still wouldn't circ him now, just as I wouldn't remove a daughter's breastbuds if I looked into the future and saw that she got breast cancer. Why make your kid go their entire life missing that body part instead of leaving it alone until something happens - if anything ever happens at all?

Indeed. We don't pull out our toenails to prevent ingrown toenails. We don't amputate our ears to prevent ear infections. We don't cut off our eyelids to prevent keratosis. We don't remove all our teeth to prevent cavities. And how many of us women have had yeast infections, yet we never considered cutting off our labia? Circumcising every baby boy to prevent a fairly rare occurence is so bizarre to me.

[lawgirl]

This is such a personal choice I dont see why one would look down on another for doing it/not doing it. All 4 of my boys are circ'd and I dont regret it one bit.

That was my original point. Both choices are valid choices and it isn't up to me to judge why someone does/does not circumcise their son. Those of us who have circ'd are pretty comfortable with our decisions. Badgering with harsh terms is really unnecessary.

[urchin_grey]

That was my original point. Both choices are valid choices and it isn't up to me to judge why someone does/does not circumcise their son. Those of us who have circ'd are pretty comfortable with our decisions. Badgering with harsh terms is really unnecessary.

I personally haven't used any harsh terms... Just sayin'.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with anyone, what's done is done.

That bottom line is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it ain't yours, don't cut it off. And what's done cannot be undone, but what's undone can be done later, if need be.

The end.

[clothbaby]

I personally haven't used any harsh terms... Just sayin'.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with anyone, what's done is done.

That bottom line is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it ain't yours, don't cut it off. And what's done cannot be undone, but what's undone can be done later, if need be.

The end.

well said !

[My3Monkeys]

I personally haven't used any harsh terms... Just sayin'.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with anyone, what's done is done.

That bottom line is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it ain't yours, don't cut it off. And what's done cannot be undone, but what's undone can be done later, if need be.

The end.

:clapclap:

[Snangel]

This is a valid point. I don't know any man who regrets his circumcision. I actually know of at least one adult man who was circ'd after the age of sixty and is pleased with his decision to do so.

This is the point, he made a choice about his own body. There is not one baby on this planet that would sign up to have his foreskin removed without general anesthetic. The point is that RIC/MGM is done on unconsenting babies. In places where MGM is not the norm men just don't have it done. More then 80 % of the worlds population is Intact, and no medical organization in the world supports MGM.

[4chixmama]

This is the one issue that makes me glad I didn't have a boy. DH would have wanted it done, since he is, so I know that would have been a battle royale. My dad & brothers are uncirced which was pretty unpopular at the time. My brothers are 28 & 26.

[MBRL567]

I have come a long way on this subject since having my DS 4yrs ago. I didnt do any research on non circ, which i think is 1/2 the issue with some ppl on the subject. Then when we were waiting on DD2 we didnt know her sex at the time and did research on non circ.. I regret getting DS circ. I will not have it done on another DS. DH on the other hand i dont think understands all the ins and outs of it and would no way leave his son intact... but then again when the time comes I bet if he did research, the same as some ppl, he would find many ppl have not had circ and are fine normal men.

I mean if 10 men are standing in the locker room, why do you really care if Joe is circ or not? If im having Whoopie with you- as long as your Penis works, i could care less what it looks like.

[Jenandfam]

Ok those pictures just sealed the deal for me no circ for my sons! (if I have any)

Ok. So those pics look aincient to me.... like 1940's... and one would think (and believe) that the technology we have today, far surpasses the "technology" of the 40's.

And I have yet to read an article on circumcision that isn't biased.

[Jenandfam]

That is Female Genital Cutting which refers to partial or total removal of the outer genitals. It is only one, and the MOST extreme and most RARE, form of female circumcision.

Girls are still circumcised in other countries the same way our boys are here. The hood of the clitoris is removed. This is certainly not as bad as FGC but if anyone were to suggest that you should do ANYTHING to your baby daughter's clit, you'd surely be outraged. Yet no one blinks an eye when the same thing is done to a boy.

THAT is the comparison here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't female genital surgery peformed so that she cannot enjoy sex when she is older?

Circumcision in this country has nothing to do with that. People circumcise for cleanliness, religion, and because it "looks" nicer (while *I* personally think that's a stupid reason)...

So to compare it to circumcision that is done on female's is irrelevant.

[Danni]

It makes me so thankful that circ is basically unheard of here.

I am so glad that I never even had to give it any thought, although the decision would not have been hard. I agree with Urchin Grey, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I just don't understand the obsession in the states with circumsicing. I try not to get into mommy war topics, but this is one i just can't wrap my head around, I really can not understand how anyone could WANT to do this to their child.

[lawgirl]

I have come a long way on this subject since having my DS 4yrs ago. I didnt do any research on non circ, which i think is 1/2 the issue with some ppl on the subject. Then when we were waiting on DD2 we didnt know her sex at the time and did research on non circ.. I regret getting DS circ. I will not have it done on another DS. DH on the other hand i dont think understands all the ins and outs of it and would no way leave his son intact... but then again when the time comes I bet if he did research, the same as some ppl, he would find many ppl have not had circ and are fine normal men.



And, there are some of us who did do the research on the issue and still circ'd our sons. Some of us refuse to be swayed by biased articles written by alarmists.

It makes me so thankful that circ is basically unheard of here.

I am so glad that I never even had to give it any thought, although the decision would not have been hard. I agree with Urchin Grey, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I just don't understand the obsession in the states with circumsicing. I try not to get into mommy war topics, but this is one i just can't wrap my head around, I really can not understand how anyone could WANT to do this to their child.

I don't understand the obsession with second-guessing the decisions of parents on this issue. Circumcision is not torture and there are VALID reasons for doing the procedure. Get over it people.

[KnitterBug]

I think her reply sounds very childish and uneducated. With that said, I circ'd my son and find it silly when people call it genital mutilation. Just as I don't judge others for not circ'ing, I ask that I not be judged for choosing to circ. There are pros/cons for BOTH choices. It helps to remember that in a debate.

Yes I totally agree with that. DS is circ'd as well and I have never thought of it as genital mutilation and never will.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't female genital surgery peformed so that she cannot enjoy sex when she is older?

Circumcision in this country has nothing to do with that. People circumcise for cleanliness, religion, and because it "looks" nicer (while *I* personally think that's a stupid reason)...

So to compare it to circumcision that is done on female's is irrelevant.

Again, I agree. female genital mutilation is preformed for that exact reason.
and also, i agree that it is a dumb reason to circ a baby because of "looks"

[Suzanne]

This is a valid point. I don't know any man who regrets his circumcision. I actually know of at least one adult man who was circ'd after the age of sixty and is pleased with his decision to do so.

I know many, includig DH

[pinkflamingos77]

I do not agree with what the girl said and I think the way she said it was very rude and immature.

When you post something on facebook for everyone to see. You are opening yourself to getting ALL types of replies. It is no surprise to me that someone replied with that.

As for the whole circumcision debate... I circumcised both of my boys. I was nothing like I am now when I had my boys. I did not do my research. I was young when I had my boys and no one informed me that I did not have to do the procedure. I only knew of one person who did not do it and that was my sister. She could not give me any info on why she chose not too.

As my boys got older and I started learning more about the whole procedure and I started talking to people who did not circumcise their boys. I came to the conclusion that I do not support circumcision. If I could go back in time. I would have never had the procedure done. I am totally in support of no circumcisions. If I was to ever get pregnant again with a boy. He will not be circumcised.

BUT and this is a BIG BUT....I do not and never will judge or point fingers to the people who do circumcise their boys. Everyone makes the choice that they see fit for their families/children.

Who am I to judge what they do?

[nini02]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't female genital surgery peformed so that she cannot enjoy sex when she is older?

Circumcision in this country has nothing to do with that. People circumcise for cleanliness, religion, and because it "looks" nicer (while *I* personally think that's a stupid reason)...

So to compare it to circumcision that is done on female's is irrelevant.
No, not all FGM is done for that reason. Seriously, it's done for all of the same reasons as male circ in a lot of instances. It is often the mothers who push for it and hand off their infant girls to have it done, because she'll be cleaner, she'll be more attractive to men, and hey, mom had it done and she still enjoys sex, all women have it done, etc. Some do it for religious reasons. There have been numerous first hand accounts that talk about this, but you have to get past what the media portrays before you find the truth (as with so many things). Also, several studies have been done that show that most women who undergo even the most drastic, and also most rare, form of FGM (Infibulation) still enjoy sex, and still reach orgasm (http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/the-sexual-consequences-of-an-african-initation-rite/). Just like circ'ed men.


And also, male circ in this country has ABSOLUTELY been used as a method for reducing sexual pleasure/desire. Look at the history of circ in the US, and you'll see that much of it was about "curing" sexual "problems" like masturbation and nocturnal emissions. Read about Dr. John Harvey Kellogg and his ilk. They obviously knew that removing the foreskin would make male genitalia less sensitive, as it's very first purpose was to stop boys from masturbating (they also endorsed cutting young girls for the same reasons). It's been given all kinds of ridiculous justifications since then (curing blindness and epilepsy, for example) and was also forced on male slaves in this country in an attempt to keep them from raping white women. The history of circ promotion in this country is disturbing, and the modern justifications aren't any more compelling if you look at it objectively.


Anyway, while female and male circ are certainly different, and female circ can definitely be much more drastic and damaging, it's certainly not irrelevant to discuss them together. I read an awesome essay from someone in the anti-FGM movement (ugh, I wish I had bookmarked it!) talking about how their cause will likely never be fulfilled as long as male circ is still freely practiced, because the cultures that cut their women can see the hypocrisy. They believe (just as some still believe in this country, about male circ) that there are health and cleanliness benefits for the woman that are significant enough to justify it.

:twocents:

[Kim]

Question for Mary, if she even sees this....

Take a guess who wrote that....

[Snangel]

I have come a long way on this subject since having my DS 4yrs ago. I didnt do any research on non circ, which i think is 1/2 the issue with some ppl on the subject. Then when we were waiting on DD2 we didnt know her sex at the time and did research on non circ.. I regret getting DS circ. I will not have it done on another DS. DH on the other hand i dont think understands all the ins and outs of it and would no way leave his son intact... but then again when the time comes I bet if he did research, the same as some ppl, he would find many ppl have not had circ and are fine normal men.

I mean if 10 men are standing in the locker room, why do you really care if Joe is circ or not? If im having Whoopie with you- as long as your Penis works, i could care less what it looks like.

And this is why I participate in these threads, not to bash or judge anyone, but to inform.

Ok. So those pics look aincient to me.... like 1940's... and one would think (and believe) that the technology we have today, far surpasses the "technology" of the 40's.

And I have yet to read an article on circumcision that isn't biased.

Would you like some more pictures? There are plenty. "technology" hasn't come as far as you think. Complications happen, and they are fairly common.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't female genital surgery peformed so that she cannot enjoy sex when she is older?

Circumcision in this country has nothing to do with that. People circumcise for cleanliness, religion, and because it "looks" nicer (while *I* personally think that's a stupid reason)...

So to compare it to circumcision that is done on female's is irrelevant.

Most of this was touched on but I wanted to add that FGM is done for all the same reasons as MGM.

MGM has become illegal in a few different countries, it is only going to take a little bit before we follow suit. Bills are being put into the senate, and soon enough this discussion won't happen anymore.

Did you know that our (Canadian) rates are down to 10%?
The more people learn the more they start saying no. Circ is and has been on the decline for a long time.

Anyhow I am gone for the day, so see you all later.

[CountryBarbie225]

What I find funny is that with not-circing my youngest ds was an ongoing battle with my dh and I. UNTIL I presented the facts to him. I purchased the Circumsision pamphlet from Mothering.com. Once he read that he was alright with our decision not to circ Tristan and to let him make that decision himself. What's funny is one of his reasons to do it because the other boys are and what if they ask why Tristan's penis is different. Well ya know what? Tristan is 9 months old and my 6 y/o DS has NOT once asked about it.
A lot of me getting my older boys circ'ed is more of lack of knowledge and research rather than being pro-circ.

[Danni]

And, there are some of us who did do the research on the issue and still circ'd our sons. Some of us refuse to be swayed by biased articles written by alarmists.



I don't understand the obsession with second-guessing the decisions of parents on this issue. Circumcision is not torture and there are VALID reasons for doing the procedure. Get over it people.

Like i said I try not to get into to many mommy wars topics, but this one just gets me. it is not like co-sleeping or whether or SAHM vs WOHM. This is something that cuts a part of the body off. If people just randomly started to cut off the tips of childrens ears I bet people would start to take notice and get upset too.

I am not knocking your choice, you made it and your son will have to tell you later how he feels about you making that decision for him. All I said was that I can not wrap my head around how people can make that choice.

[countrymama2four]

I think her reply sounds very childish and uneducated. With that said, I circ'd my son and find it silly when people call it genital mutilation. Just as I don't judge others for not circ'ing, I ask that I not be judged for choosing to circ. There are pros/cons for BOTH choices. It helps to remember that in a debate.

:ditto:

[hippydippymama]

No, not all FGM is done for that reason. Seriously, it's done for all of the same reasons as male circ in a lot of instances. It is often the mothers who push for it and hand off their infant girls to have it done, because she'll be cleaner, she'll be more attractive to men, and hey, mom had it done and she still enjoys sex, all women have it done, etc. Some do it for religious reasons. There have been numerous first hand accounts that talk about this, but you have to get past what the media portrays before you find the truth (as with so many things). Also, several studies have been done that show that most women who undergo even the most drastic, and also most rare, form of FGM (Infibulation) still enjoy sex, and still reach orgasm (http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/14/the-sexual-consequences-of-an-african-initation-rite/). Just like circ'ed men.


And also, male circ in this country has ABSOLUTELY been used as a method for reducing sexual pleasure/desire. Look at the history of circ in the US, and you'll see that much of it was about "curing" sexual "problems" like masturbation and nocturnal emissions. Read about Dr. John Harvey Kellogg and his ilk. They obviously knew that removing the foreskin would make male genitalia less sensitive, as it's very first purpose was to stop boys from masturbating (they also endorsed cutting young girls for the same reasons). It's been given all kinds of ridiculous justifications since then (curing blindness and epilepsy, for example) and was also forced on male slaves in this country in an attempt to keep them from raping white women. The history of circ promotion in this country is disturbing, and the modern justifications aren't any more compelling if you look at it objectively.


Anyway, while female and male circ are certainly different, and female circ can definitely be much more drastic and damaging, it's certainly not irrelevant to discuss them together. I read an awesome essay from someone in the anti-FGM movement (ugh, I wish I had bookmarked it!) talking about how their cause will likely never be fulfilled as long as male circ is still freely practiced, because the cultures that cut their women can see the hypocrisy. They believe (just as some still believe in this country, about male circ) that there are health and cleanliness benefits for the woman that are significant enough to justify it.

:twocents:

Yup, that is exactly what I was goign to say. Thanks for beating me to it. ;)

Like i said I try not to get into to many mommy wars topics, but this one just gets me. it is not like co-sleeping or whether or SAHM vs WOHM. This is something that cuts a part of the body off. If people just randomly started to cut off the tips of childrens ears I bet people would start to take notice and get upset too.

I am not knocking your choice, you made it and your son will have to tell you later how he feels about you making that decision for him. All I said was that I can not wrap my head around how people can make that choice.

Exactly. I am not trying to flame anyone. I am very passionate about this and honest-to-god, if I had not had people "attacking" me about circumcision when I was pregnant with Jameson, he would not likely be intact today! I had no clue about it! If you have done all the research and you still want to make that choice, go ahead. But MANY people, like the OP's "friend", have no clue!

[Danni]

Yup, that is exactly what I was goign to say. Thanks for beating me to it. ;)



Exactly. I am not trying to flame anyone. I am very passionate about this and honest-to-god, if I had not had people "attacking" me about circumcision when I was pregnant with Jameson, he would not likely be intact today! I had no clue about it! If you have done all the research and you still want to make that choice, go ahead. But MANY people, like the OP's "friend", have no clue!

Excellent point Jill. So many do it just because it is what people tend to do in the states. I guess that is where my obsession comment came from.

See here no one and I mean no one circs. I asked several doctors about rates of men getting infection or poblems later on and having to have circs done as older children or adults. They seriously thought I was nuts. It just doesn't happen. They teach cleanliness and take care of small problems as they arise. They do not go jumping to circ'ing.

[Kim]

I was also clueless Jill. My 3yr old is cut. I NEVER even KNEW I had the choice. I just thought it was done because if they were not circed they WOULD have problems. It wasn't until I was pregnant with Vincent that I did my research, and let me tell you mamas, it took MONTHS of research for me to decide not to have him cut.

[5LilMonkeys]

.

MGM has become illegal in a few different countries, it is only going to take a little bit before we follow suit. Bills are being put into the senate, and soon enough this discussion won't happen anymore.



This is so incredibly wrong. :twitch:

[Suzanne]

Wait, are there really bills being put into the senate to make circ illegal? am I reading this wrong? If so- it deserves it's own hot topic thread :)

[5LilMonkeys]

Wait, are there really bills being put into the senate to make circ illegal? am I reading this wrong? If so- it deserves it's own hot topic thread :)

:agreed: I do think thats exactally what she is saying....

[Suzanne]

:agreed: I do think thats exactally what she is saying....

Oh man, I'm trying like heck to find a good resorce on this bill, but MAN ALIVE, tring to find a sourc on non bias circumcision info is nearly impossible!

[Kim]

Yup, that's why it took me soooooooo long to research it on my own. that and vaccine research.....so hard to find non bias stuff...Oh man, I'm trying like heck to find a good resorce on this bill, but MAN ALIVE, tring to find a sourc on non bias circumcision info is nearly impossible!

[Snangel]

http://www.mgmbill.org/index.htm

[Suzanne]

yeah, I found that site as well, but was hoping to get straight up information from a source that wasn't for, or against it.

http://www.mgmbill.org/index.htm

[Snangel]

yeah, I found that site as well, but was hoping to get straight up information from a source that wasn't for, or against it.

Unfortunately you won't find it...the best I can give you is medical infor...here is most statement's AAP< WHO and what not.

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

[nini02]

This is so incredibly wrong. :twitch:

What could possibly be bad about giving each male the right to make his own decision about this, since he and only he will have to live with the results for the rest of his life? :shrug:

[Suzanne]

Unfortunately you won't find it...the best I can give you is medical infor...here is most statement's AAP< WHO and what not.

http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

Thankyou for that link. . .although its super hard to read, I think I need some more schooling before I can try it again:err:

[5LilMonkeys]

What could possibly be bad about giving each male the right to make his own decision about this, since he and only he will have to live with the results for the rest of his life? :shrug:

We as parents have every right to make decisions for our children. Right or wrong they are ours to make. Women look down on each other for so many things - not breastfeeding, not CDing, vaxing, etc. Where do we stop stepping in and forcing our opinions on others?? What is next?? We cant use certain vaxes because it MIGHT cause autism?? No one has the right to tell me circing my sons is wrong or I am 'mutilating' them. In my eyes it was the right thing to do. For us its not just a personal choice its also religious (I know that is a whole other debate). Also making the choice to do it as an infant is a whole different procedure then as an adult.

We all have to agree to disagree and as mothers support the decisions we make either way. There are millions of parents out there who have to make drastic medical decisions based on what they think is right for their child.

[KnitterBug]

We as parents have every right to make decisions for our children. Right or wrong they are ours to make. Women look down on each other for so many things - not breastfeeding, not CDing, vaxing, etc. Where do we stop stepping in and forcing our opinions on others?? What is next?? We cant use certain vaxes because it MIGHT cause autism?? No one has the right to tell me circing my sons is wrong or I am 'mutilating' them. In my eyes it was the right thing to do. For us its not just a personal choice its also religious (I know that is a whole other debate). Also making the choice to do it as an infant is a whole different procedure then as an adult.

We all have to agree to disagree and as mothers support the decisions we make either way. There are millions of parents out there who have to make drastic medical decisions based on what they think is right for their child.

i think i love you

[nini02]

We as parents have every right to make decisions for our children. Right or wrong they are ours to make. Women look down on each other for so many things - not breastfeeding, not CDing, vaxing, etc. Where do we stop stepping in and forcing our opinions on others?? What is next?? We cant use certain vaxes because it MIGHT cause autism?? No one has the right to tell me circing my sons is wrong or I am 'mutilating' them. In my eyes it was the right thing to do. For us its not just a personal choice its also religious (I know that is a whole other debate). Also making the choice to do it as an infant is a whole different procedure then as an adult.

We all have to agree to disagree and as mothers support the decisions we make either way. There are millions of parents out there who have to make drastic medical decisions based on what they think is right for their child.
I absolutely agree that we need to make decisions for our kids, I just don't think circ is one of the ones we need to be making.

I guess the difference I see is that those other choices can be explained in a logical way. I can see the logic in choosing to vaccinate, even though that's what we chose. I can see the logic in some cases for formula feeding, though I am very pro-breastfeeding. Not using cloth diapers, I can absolutely see the logic in that for many people. I try not to judge people for the decisions they make for their kids, but that doesn't mean I won't speak my mind on the issue. I feel more strongly about circ for many reasons and I try to educate.

Other medical decisions parents make for their kids, especially the drastic ones, are mainly based on need - done to treat or fix an immediate problem, or prevent something that is otherwise very likely to go wrong, etc. Circ just doesn't fit into those categories, and the supposed benefits are attainable by other, less invasive means in almost all cases. If you took your child to a doctor and asked them to remove any other part of their body simply because that was what you wanted, what do you think would happen? There are uncountable things that could be prevented by removing the body part that would be affected but we simply don't do it. I don't get what makes a penis so different.

IDK, as is often the case in this debate we just have to agree to disagree. Obviously we are doing what we think is best.

[hippydippymama]

Other medical decisions parents make for their kids, especially the drastic ones, are mainly based on need - done to treat or fix an immediate problem, or prevent something that is otherwise very likely to go wrong, etc. Circ just doesn't fit into those categories, and the supposed benefits are attainable by other, less invasive means in almost all cases. If you took your child to a doctor and asked them to remove any other part of their body simply because that was what you wanted, what do you think would happen? There are uncountable things that could be prevented by removing the body part that would be affected but we simply don't do it. I don't get what makes a penis so different.


I agree with you. I don't think circing vs. not circing falls into the same category as other parenting decisions. This is my OPINION. Yes we have the choice to feed our babies Pop-Tarts if we want, but any medical professional will tell you that's not a good idea.

Circumcision is such a permanent alteration. It should have the person's consent. I think if men have to wait till they are 18 the circ rates will drop even more.

[lawgirl]

I find it interesting that the anti-circ'ing ladies on her are so adamant that there are NO benefits to circumcising your son and are also very dismissive of those of us who chose to circumcise. If you look at all types of research, not just those that have a biased agenda, it is clear that numerous studies indicate that there are benefits to be had from circ'ing. Just a thought.

[hippydippymama]

I find it interesting that the anti-circ'ing ladies on her are so adamant that there are NO benefits to circumcising your son and are also very dismissive of those of us who chose to circumcise. If you look at all types of research, not just those that have a biased agenda, it is clear that numerous studies indicate that there are benefits to be had from circ'ing. Just a thought.

Can you show me these non-biased studies? :)

[Heather]

Can you show me these non-biased studies? :)


A new one published in the New England Journal of medicine yesterday was being quoted on the news last night. It was not exactly NEW information in my mind. It was about decrease incidence of herpes and HPV. The physician on the news was a Dr. Golden if you feel like looking for it. Same deal though right-- less occurence of sexually transmitted disease which can also be prevented by use of condoms sooo.... not an adequate reason to perform surgery on an infant's penis for most anti circ people even if decreased HPV means decreased cervical cancer.

[Snangel]

I find it interesting that the anti-circ'ing ladies on her are so adamant that there are NO benefits to circumcising your son and are also very dismissive of those of us who chose to circumcise. If you look at all types of research, not just those that have a biased agenda, it is clear that numerous studies indicate that there are benefits to be had from circ'ing. Just a thought.

Ummm here is the problem, no medical organization in the world supports it. The risks outweigh any potential benefits.

I also plan on teaching my children about condoms.
~~~~~~~
A new one published in the New England Journal of medicine yesterday was being quoted on the news last night. It was not exactly NEW information in my mind. It was about decrease incidence of herpes and HPV. The physician on the news was a Dr. Golden if you feel like looking for it. Same deal though right-- less occurence of sexually transmitted disease which can also be prevented by use of condoms sooo.... not an adequate reason to perform surgery on an infant's penis for most anti circ people even if decreased HPV means decreased cervical cancer.

Worth while mentioning most recent scientists discovery that Langerhans cells that are present in the foreskin are behave as 'natural barrier' to HIV.
Bellow are the links.

http://www.womenshealth.gov/news/english/602421.htm
http://body.aol.com/news/articles/_a...28234109990019 (http://body.aol.com/news/articles/_a/scientists-discover-natural-barrier-to/n20070428234109990019)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...030500357.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/05/AR2007030500357.html)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=17334373 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=17334373)

Another study shows no HIV protection from circumcision
http://www.jaids.org/pt/re/jaids/abs...195628!8091!-1 (http://www.jaids.org/pt/re/jaids/abstract.00126334-200712150-00017.htm;jsessi..HSQZQFtGmG2M2TNpM23NNGQvQrVs83rC 17NF6VZM9L51LPQYkyl2%2165375592%21181195628%218091 %21-1)

Outside of Israel, the U.S. is the 2nd highest circumcising country in the world and after Africa, has the 2nd highest infection rate. Plus the fact that more than 80% of the world's men are "uncircumcised" and countries in Europe have an extremely low HIV+ rate.
Important to mention that circumcision scars may cause cancer:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=3944860 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=3944860)

The tumors involved the prepuce (n = 1), prepuce and distal shaft (n = 1), circumcision scar line (n = 2), circumcision scar line and distal shaft
http://www.ajsp.com/pt/re/ajsp/abstr...195629!8091!-1 (http://www.ajsp.com/pt/re/ajsp/abstract.00000478-200401000-00014.htm;jsessi..HnFZPqCyMGXpTvK9TvZShGJJGQYkhDdb PhXlKdDl1yMLpVmyJgPL%211219373867%21181195629%2180 91%21-1)

[lawgirl]

Ummm here is the problem, no medical organization in the world supports it. The risks outweigh any potential benefits.

I also plan on teaching my children about condoms.
~~~~~~~


Worth while mentioning most recent scientists discovery that Langerhans cells that are present in the foreskin are behave as 'natural barrier' to HIV.
Bellow are the links.

http://www.womenshealth.gov/news/english/602421.htm
http://body.aol.com/news/articles/_a...28234109990019 (http://body.aol.com/news/articles/_a/scientists-discover-natural-barrier-to/n20070428234109990019)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...030500357.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/05/AR2007030500357.html)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=17334373 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=17334373)

Another study shows no HIV protection from circumcision
http://www.jaids.org/pt/re/jaids/abs...195628!8091!-1 (http://www.jaids.org/pt/re/jaids/abstract.00126334-200712150-00017.htm;jsessi..HSQZQFtGmG2M2TNpM23NNGQvQrVs83rC 17NF6VZM9L51LPQYkyl2%2165375592%21181195628%218091 %21-1)

Outside of Israel, the U.S. is the 2nd highest circumcising country in the world and after Africa, has the 2nd highest infection rate. Plus the fact that more than 80% of the world's men are "uncircumcised" and countries in Europe have an extremely low HIV+ rate.
Important to mention that circumcision scars may cause cancer:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t_uids=3944860 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=3944860)

The tumors involved the prepuce (n = 1), prepuce and distal shaft (n = 1), circumcision scar line (n = 2), circumcision scar line and distal shaft
http://www.ajsp.com/pt/re/ajsp/abstr...195629!8091!-1 (http://www.ajsp.com/pt/re/ajsp/abstract.00000478-200401000-00014.htm;jsessi..HnFZPqCyMGXpTvK9TvZShGJJGQYkhDdb PhXlKdDl1yMLpVmyJgPL%211219373867%21181195629%2180 91%21-1)


I'm not doing a battle of the studies. Very quick research can be done to find some legitimate reasons that a parent might choose to circumcise. The bottom line in most sources is that there are benefits to be had from circ'ing and there are also some risks.

It is clear to me that you refuse to acknowledge the benefits as it goes against your beliefs on the topic. I'm cool with that. I don't feel the need to change your mind and you shouldn't feel the need to change mine. I have done my own research and took the decision to heart at the time it was made and my husband and I are very happy with the choice we made. You see, we are very loving parents and not uneducated barbarians hell-bent on torturing our son.

[hippydippymama]

I'm not doing a battle of the studies. Very quick research can be done to find some legitimate reasons that a parent might choose to circumcise. The bottom line in most sources is that there are benefits to be had from circ'ing and there are also some risks.

It is clear to me that you refuse to acknowledge the benefits as it goes against your beliefs on the topic. I'm cool with that. I don't feel the need to change your mind and you shouldn't feel the need to change mine. I have done my own research and took the decision to heart at the time it was made and my husband and I are very happy with the choice we made. You see, we are very loving parents and not uneducated barbarians hell-bent on torturing our son.

Nobody's saying you are. (well, I'M not, can't speak for everyone :err: ) Yuo are one of VERY few parents I have "met" that actually did research on this topic and decided it would be the best decision. 99.9% of the rest of the people I know DID NOT. This is why I rant and rave about circumcision and its risks, because most people DO NOT KNOW. You DO know, and you weighed each side and decided which suited your family best. Good for you! :winkthumb:

[Danni]

I find it interesting that the anti-circ'ing ladies on her are so adamant that there are NO benefits to circumcising your son and are also very dismissive of those of us who chose to circumcise. If you look at all types of research, not just those that have a biased agenda, it is clear that numerous studies indicate that there are benefits to be had from circ'ing. Just a thought.

I gues I am just curious why the mahority of the world do not circ if it is soooo beneficial. And why the docs here so rarly have to perform a cir on an older child or adult if non circing has so many problems.

IMO the culture in the states has propagated this idea that circing is a good thing.
~~~~~~~
:canspell:

Man I need to spell chack. Aslo I don't knwo if culture was really the right word.
~~~~~~~
Nobody's saying you are. (well, I'M not, can't speak for everyone :err: ) Yuo are one of VERY few parents I have "met" that actually did research on this topic and decided it would be the best decision. 99.9% of the rest of the people I know DID NOT. This is why I rant and rave about circumcision and its risks, because most people DO NOT KNOW. You DO know, and you weighed each side and decided which suited your family best. Good for you! :winkthumb:

I agree with you Jill. That is what makes me crazy is that most Americans just do it beacuse it is "what is done" not because they are informed.

Lawgirl, i am not trying to knock you. I have just been saying that I can't wrap my head around it all. The rates in the states are so much higher than the rest of the world...why is that? If other countries do not have these problems that circing supposedly takes care of then what is the need in the states?

I am glad that you did your reseach and feel good about your choice.

[JustTara]

I find it interesting that the anti-circ'ing ladies on her are so adamant that there are NO benefits to circumcising your son and are also very dismissive of those of us who chose to circumcise. If you look at all types of research, not just those that have a biased agenda, it is clear that numerous studies indicate that there are benefits to be had from circ'ing. Just a thought.

You know, I chose to circ one son and not the other. My choice as their mom. I don't regret either decision, and I prefer to not be chastised for my choice. We make a lot of decisions as parents, I think for the most part we make the best choice that we can and carry on. I hate that we beat each other up about stuff like this.

I quote lawgirl, because she is not the only one out there who has chosen to circumsize. The assumption is that all of us who have a child who has been circ'ed are dumbasses who don't know all the reasons to keep their son's intact. Showing pictures of botched procedures is fine and well, but those cases are statistically rare. There are a lot of educated people who circ both for PERSONAL reasons, ASTHETIC reasons and RELIGIOUS reasons.

And to the OP, when you post shit on facebook, what do you expect?

[Snangel]

I'm not doing a battle of the studies. Very quick research can be done to find some legitimate reasons that a parent might choose to circumcise. The bottom line in most sources is that there are benefits to be had from circ'ing and there are also some risks.

It is clear to me that you refuse to acknowledge the benefits as it goes against your beliefs on the topic. I'm cool with that. I don't feel the need to change your mind and you shouldn't feel the need to change mine. I have done my own research and took the decision to heart at the time it was made and my husband and I are very happy with the choice we made. You see, we are very loving parents and not uneducated barbarians hell-bent on torturing our son.

I never said that, I actually think you are a very intelligent woman. I have learned a lot from you, and will continue to do so. You bring a lot of information with you, this is the reason I have continued posting to this thread. I don't want to change your mind, or make you feel bad, this is not my intent, my intent is the same as hippys (Really what is your name sorry dude)

Nobody's saying you are. (well, I'M not, can't speak for everyone :err: ) Yuo are one of VERY few parents I have "met" that actually did research on this topic and decided it would be the best decision. 99.9% of the rest of the people I know DID NOT. This is why I rant and rave about circumcision and its risks, because most people DO NOT KNOW. You DO know, and you weighed each side and decided which suited your family best. Good for you! :winkthumb:

You know, I chose to circ one son and not the other. My choice as their mom. I don't regret either decision, and I prefer to not be chastised for my choice. We make a lot of decisions as parents, I think for the most part we make the best choice that we can and carry on. I hate that we beat each other up about stuff like this.

I quote lawgirl, because she is not the only one out there who has chosen to circumsize. The assumption is that all of us who have a child who has been circ'ed are dumbasses who don't know all the reasons to keep their son's intact. Showing pictures of botched procedures is fine and well, but those cases are statistically rare. There are a lot of educated people who circ both for PERSONAL reasons, ASTHETIC reasons and RELIGIOUS reasons.

And to the OP, when you post poop on facebook, what do you expect?

I don't think you are dumb, never had, just like I said to lawgirl (whats your name too, sorry) you are intelligent, and just like stated before the reason I continue these threads is because people need to be informed, perhaps of both sides of this discussion.

[Danni]

I quote lawgirl, because she is not the only one out there who has chosen to circumsize. The assumption is that all of us who have a child who has been circ'ed are dumbasses who don't know all the reasons to keep their son's intact. Showing pictures of botched procedures is fine and well, but those cases are statistically rare. There are a lot of educated people who circ both for PERSONAL reasons, ASTHETIC reasons and RELIGIOUS reasons.

And to the OP, when you post poop on facebook, what do you expect?

I hope that none of my comments have made you feel this way. I do feel very strongly about it, but so much of it comes from living here and knowing that none of these men are circed and they have no health problems because of it ( I had Dh lookup stats in Polish for me and they are so low).

I honestly just questions why it is done so mcuh in the states and was hoping for some answers.

Like i said I do feel strogly, but i do not think that you are bad people for having it done to your sons, that is between you and him. I am honestly just questioning the rates and why they are so high there.

[JustTara]

I hope that none of my comments have made you feel this way. I do feel very strongly about it, but so much of it comes from living here and knowing that none of these men are circed and they have no health problems because of it ( I had Dh lookup stats in Polish for me and they are so low).

I honestly just questions why it is done so mcuh in the states and was hoping for some answers.

Like i said I do feel strogly, but i do not think that you are bad people for having it done to your sons, that is between you and him. I am honestly just questioning the rates and why they are so high there.

I think that for a very long time circumcision was just done routinely for maybe cleanlieness reasons (whether that is valid or not, that may have been the reason). So, it became the culture where all baby boys just had it done. This is what many women saw when they were first exposed to penises, so they regarded it as the norm and had it done to their sons so they would "look like dad" or whatever. I live in the center of the country, and i believe our rate is like 70% of boys are circ'ed - so there is the locker room arguement. It is only very recently where the AAP came out and said it is cosmetic in nature.

[hippydippymama]

my intent is the same as hippys (Really what is your name sorry dude)


ROFL, I'm Jill but I answer to "hippy" since that's what I get called a lot IRL too. ;)

[Danni]

I think that for a very long time circumcision was just done routinely for maybe cleanlieness reasons (whether that is valid or not, that may have been the reason). So, it became the culture where all baby boys just had it done. This is what many women saw when they were first exposed to penises, so they regarded it as the norm and had it done to their sons so they would "look like dad" or whatever. I live in the center of the country, and i believe our rate is like 70% of boys are circ'ed - so there is the locker room arguement. It is only very recently where the AAP came out and said it is cosmetic in nature.

Right. I guess what I am trying to figure out, and maybe this is not the best place to ask, but if the AAP has admitted that it is just cosmetic and we know that around the world men are not having non circ health issues, then why would anyone still choose to do that? KWIM?

[JustTara]

Right. I guess what I am trying to figure out, and maybe this is not the best place to ask, but if the AAP has admitted that it is just cosmetic and we know that around the world men are not having non circ health issues, then why would anyone still choose to do that? KWIM?

Here is the AAP's exact policy. You can see it has both pros and cons and they say if you are going to have it done that it should be done early on.


http://www.aap.org/publiced/images/parenting_qa_title.gifCircumcision
Should we have our son circumcised?
At birth, boys have skin that covers the end of the penis, called the foreskin. Circumcision surgically removes the foreskin, exposing the tip of the penis. Circumcision is usually performed by a doctor in the first few days of life. An infant must be stable and healthy to safely be circumcised.
Scientific studies show some medical benefits of circumcision. However, these benefits are not sufficient for the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) to recommend that all infant boys be circumcised.
Because circumcision is not essential to a child's health, parents should choose what is best for their child by looking at the benefits and risks. Circumcision may be more risky if done later in life, so parents should decide before or soon after their son is born if they want it done.
Reasons parents may choose circumcision
There are a variety of reasons why parents choose circumcision.


Medical benefits, including

A slightly lower risk of urinary tract infections (UTIs). A circumcised infant boy has about a 1 in 1,000 chance of developing a UTI in the first year of life; an uncircumcised infant boy has about a 1 in 100 chance of developing a UTI in the first year of life.
A lower risk of getting cancer of the penis. However, this type of cancer is very rare in all males.
A slightly lower risk of getting sexually transmitted infections (STIs), including HIV, the virus that causes AIDS.
Prevention of foreskin infections.
Prevention of phimosis, a condition in uncircumcised males that makes foreskin retraction impossible.
Easier genital hygiene.

Social reasons. Many parents choose to have it done because "all the other men in the family" had it done or because they do not want their sons to feel "different."
Religious or cultural reasons. Some groups such as followers of the Jewish and Islamic faiths practice circumcision for religious and cultural reasons.
Reasons parents may choose not to circumcise
The following are reasons why parents may choose NOT to have their son circumcised:


Fear of the risks. Complications are rare and usually minor but may include bleeding, infection, cutting the foreskin too short or too long, and improper healing.
Belief that the foreskin is needed. Some people feel the foreskin is needed to protect the tip of the penis. Without it, the tip of the penis may become irritated and cause the opening of the penis to become too small. This can cause urination problems that may need to be surgically corrected.
Belief it can affect sex. Some feel that circumcision makes the tip of the penis less sensitive, causing a decrease in sexual pleasure later in life.
Belief that proper hygiene can lower health risks. Boys can be taught proper hygiene that can lower their chances of getting infections, cancer of the penis, and STIs.

[Suzanne]

I find it interesting that the anti-circ'ing ladies on her are so adamant that there are NO benefits to circumcising your son and are also very dismissive of those of us who chose to circumcise. If you look at all types of research, not just those that have a biased agenda, it is clear that numerous studies indicate that there are benefits to be had from circ'ing. Just a thought.

Well yes, you are right, however the benefits to be had for circing don't justify it. Really, it's why many insurance companies don't cover circs anymore, because it has been deemed medically unnecessary. I mean (and really, I'm not trying to be overly dramatic, just trying to make a point) you could get breast cancer, so perhaps we should remove newborn girls mammary glands?

[MyThreeMiracles]

I have three people that I know of in my immediate family who had botched circs. Even without knowing that, it was never even a consideration for me.

Parents have to choose what they feel is right for them and their family, taking into consideration all of the risks, on everything parenting related, not just circ.

[urchin_grey]

There are millions of parents out there who have to make drastic medical decisions based on what they think is right for their child.

:shakehead:

Yes, I have made some big decisions as far as my son's health goes. He spent the first 3 months of his life in leg casts. He has had major surgery on his hips and feet when he was barely a toddler and has spent weeks in a body cast from the chest down. He has spent his entire life is some sort of cast or brace. We did this so that someday, he could WALK.

How in the world does that compare to routine circ?

[Heather]

Here is the AAP's exact policy. You can see it has both pros and cons and they say if you are going to have it done that it should be done early on.

[/left]
[/list]


That's the first time I've seen the AAP's official policy. I agree it shows arguments on both sides.
I also am someone who researched and chose to circ. We actually had to study it and debate it in nursing school.

I think it's presumptious and false to think that most of the parents who circ didn't research or make an informed choice. It's been 50-50 here (in Canada) for a LONG time, so it's not like people don't know anything about intact penii.

I did what I would want done for myself if I was a guy. I DO think and have experienced a significant difference in the aesthetics, function and sexual aspects. Those were all parts of the issue for me having had long term sexual relationships with both intact and circ'd men. For me there was not any ONE reason; it was a combination of many small ones and no compellling reason NOT to. I also did believe that I needed to take my husbands feelings into consideration as someone who actually owns a penis. I expect him to ietn to me about birthing choices and breastfeeding.
It's not enough of an argument in my mind to say that my son's could have it done as an adult if they so choose. It's a much bigger deal when it's done later in life in cost, recovery and just the practicality of getting it done.


My arguments and reasons are not enough for some people and they haven't walked a mile in my shoes.I'm ok with that. I don't post about any of this to get people to circumcize their sons. I just dont' feel badly about doing what I thought was best for mine. I can see both sides and can totally understand why people chose not to circumcize-- more power to you.
If my son's end up coming to me as adults and are really upset that I had them done, I'll tell them I'm sorry and that I did what i thought was best. I think the odds of that are slim.

[5LilMonkeys]

You know, I chose to circ one son and not the other. My choice as their mom. I don't regret either decision, and I prefer to not be chastised for my choice. We make a lot of decisions as parents, I think for the most part we make the best choice that we can and carry on. I hate that we beat each other up about stuff like this.

I quote lawgirl, because she is not the only one out there who has chosen to circumsize. The assumption is that all of us who have a child who has been circ'ed are dumbasses who don't know all the reasons to keep their son's intact. Showing pictures of botched procedures is fine and well, but those cases are statistically rare. There are a lot of educated people who circ both for PERSONAL reasons, ASTHETIC reasons and RELIGIOUS reasons.

And to the OP, when you post poop on facebook, what do you expect?

ITA I honestly think if your trying to educate someone or discussing with someone who has made the choice you dont throw around the word 'mutilation'. How are we who choose to circ suppose to take that??

Originally Posted by 5LilMonkeys http://www.clothdiapernation.com/vbforums/images/TheHobbit/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.clothdiapernation.com/vbforums/showthread.php?p=184966#post184966)
There are millions of parents out there who have to make drastic medical decisions based on what they think is right for their child.


:shakehead:

Yes, I have made some big decisions as far as my son's health goes. He spent the first 3 months of his life in leg casts. He has had major surgery on his hips and feet when he was barely a toddler and has spent weeks in a body cast from the chest down. He has spent his entire life is some sort of cast or brace. We did this so that someday, he could WALK.

How in the world does that compare to routine circ?

It sounds to me that alot of those who done circ DO see it as a major medical procedure. I have 1 child who's had heart surgery and another child who is looking at some kind of medical procedure on her legs and hips in the near future so I know what its like to make those decisions.

[Snangel]

I think it's presumptious and false to think that most of the parents who circ didn't research or make an informed choice. It's been 50-50 here (in Canada) for a LONG time, so it's not like people don't know anything about intact penii.


Its is actually down to nearly 10% circed and 90% intact.

It is 50/50 in the states though.

[Heather]

Its is actually down to nearly 10% circed and 90% intact.

It is 50/50 in the states though.


I've read that here, though when I was looking for info the most recent stats I could find weren't to old and it was 50/50. It's about 50/50 in my circle of friends. I don't really care.(not snarky) My point was really just that in Canada, it's not some new thing to leave boys intact. Pretty much all my friends have dated men of both penis "styles" ;)
According to my Mom it was about 50/50 when I was born and though it's changed a bit with the generations it seems like it's been close to 50/50 for a long time.

[urchin_grey]

It sounds to me that alot of those who done circ DO see it as a major medical procedure. I have 1 child who's had heart surgery and another child who is looking at some kind of medical procedure on her legs and hips in the near future so I know what its like to make those decisions.

Hm. Well if you equate the foreskin to birth defects, then having a foreskin is a pretty damn common birth defect. :giggle:

[5LilMonkeys]

Hm. Well if you equate the foreskin to birth defects, then having a foreskin is a pretty damn common birth defect. :giggle:

That is not what I was saying but I guess you can take it that way if you'd like. The point I was trying to make was - not all birth defects need medical intervention but alot of parents do decide to do it.

[urchin_grey]

That is not what I was saying but I guess you can take it that way if you'd like. The point I was trying to make was - not all birth defects need medical intervention but alot of parents do decide to do it.

Oh, I see. That's where I differ then... We've only decided to do the ones that were necessary. Even so, I still don't see it as the same thing. Birth defects (even if they don't interfere with "function"), are different than foreskin. One is a anatomical defect, one is anatomically normal. I mean, being born WITHOUT a foreskin is considered a birth defect, even by American physicians. So I can't really see how circ and surgery to correct birth defects compare...

[naughtymonkey]

Stupid question. For those of you who are anti-circ and want to take away the ability for a parent to make the choice to have their son circ'd, what do you say to those people who do it for religious reasons? Are they not entitled to their religious beliefs? Would you take away their freedom of religion to suit your purposes?
Frankly, I get sick and tired of mommy wars. We all make the best decisions for our children based on the information that we have at the time. I am sure that none of us are 100% perfect parents. Hell, I make lots of mistakes as a mom. And I'm sure that some things that I do and think are okay would make some of you cringe, and vice versa. I understand that you feel passionately about this subject, but is it really necessary to tear each other down so much? Being a mom is a hard job (it's by far the hardest and most rewarding job I've ever had), and it makes it that much more difficult when we hurt each other and lessen each other.

[Suzanne]

That is not what I was saying but I guess you can take it that way if you'd like. The point I was trying to make was - not all birth defects need medical intervention but alot of parents do decide to do it.

Exactly, cosmetic surgery

[PrincessPurple]

Stupid question. For those of you who are anti-circ and want to take away the ability for a parent to make the choice to have their son circ'd, what do you say to those people who do it for religious reasons? Are they not entitled to their religious beliefs? Would you take away their freedom of religion to suit your purposes?

I was wondering this, too.

Also, I'm not very well versed on Facebook & what goes on there, but I can't imagine posting anything about my sons penis on something like that. Am I missing something?

[nini02]

Stupid question. For those of you who are anti-circ and want to take away the ability for a parent to make the choice to have their son circ'd, what do you say to those people who do it for religious reasons? Are they not entitled to their religious beliefs? Would you take away their freedom of religion to suit your purposes?

I'll answer your question with another question (that no one here has bothered to answer for me yet, so I hope you will as I am really interested in the answer to this)-

Do you think that religious rights are a suitable justification for taking rights away from others?

Are you saying that female circumcision, animal sacrifice and other such things should be legal if done in the name of religion? Because those are religious for some people too.

Or is it just the rituals that YOU practice or agree with that should be off limits as far as laws go? Or only rituals that are acceptable to a large enough group of people? Should ALL religious ritual be allowed or do we get to pick and choose who's beliefs are "real" enough to be protected?

[naughtymonkey]

I'll answer your question with another question (that no one here has bothered to answer for me yet, so I hope you will as I am really interested in the answer to this)-

Do you think that religious rights are a suitable justification for taking rights away from others?

Are you saying that female circumcision, animal sacrifice and other such things should be legal if done in the name of religion? Because those are religious for some people too.

Or is it just the rituals that YOU practice or agree with that should be off limits as far as laws go? Or only rituals that are acceptable to a large enough group of people? Should ALL religious ritual be allowed or do we get to pick and choose who's beliefs are "real" enough to be protected?

Honey, let's not make this a personal attack on my religious beliefs. I'm Christian, not Jewish. I don't plan on circ'ing this baby when he's born. I just asked the question.
And don't equate circumcision to animal sacrifice. That's just silly.:shakehead:
~~~~~~~
I should add that I find it amusing just how extreme some of you anti-circ ladies are. Really, get a grip. I understand that you don't agree with it, but it doesn't really help your case when you start comparing it to killing animals. It just makes you sound crazy.

[thetoastercoaster]

Honey, let's not make this a personal attack on my religious beliefs. I'm Christian, not Jewish. I don't plan on circ'ing this baby when he's born. I just asked the question.
And don't equate circumcision to animal sacrifice. That's just silly.:shakehead:
~~~~~~~
I should add that I find it amusing just how extreme some of you anti-circ ladies are. Really, get a grip. I understand that you don't agree with it, but it doesn't really help your case when you start comparing it to killing animals. It just makes you sound crazy.

I didn't see her attacking you, she was asking questions back to you. And you mentioned the animal sacrifice but glossed over FGM. I'm curious too, if you think that MGM should be ok for religious reasons then do you support FGM too and why?

The last part of your post though is rather snarky. Was that called for?

[Danni]

Honey, let's not make this a personal attack on my religious beliefs. I'm Christian, not Jewish. I don't plan on circ'ing this baby when he's born. I just asked the question.
And don't equate circumcision to animal sacrifice. That's just silly.:shakehead:
~~~~~~~
I should add that I find it amusing just how extreme some of you anti-circ ladies are. Really, get a grip. I understand that you don't agree with it, but it doesn't really help your case when you start comparing it to killing animals. It just makes you sound crazy.

I did not see her attackingyour or anyone elses beliefs. She is asking a question and has thus far recieved no answer.

Now I have not equated it with animal sacrifice or killing animals. But to me circing IS a human rights issue. I guess I just don't get why someone would feel right about making a decision for another human that alters their body.

As far as the religion question goes...I just don't know. I can't figure out where I stand on it. In my heart I just don't feel that it is right for anyone, no matter what the reson, to make that kind of decision for someone else. But I also believe in religious freedom and don't want to limit people in their beliefs.
~~~~~~~
Oh and FTR, I think this is one of the most civil circ debates I have ever seen, well done ladies!

[nini02]

Honey, let's not make this a personal attack on my religious beliefs. I'm Christian, not Jewish. I don't plan on circ'ing this baby when he's born. I just asked the question.
And don't equate circumcision to animal sacrifice. That's just silly.:shakehead:
~~~~~~~
I should add that I find it amusing just how extreme some of you anti-circ ladies are. Really, get a grip. I understand that you don't agree with it, but it doesn't really help your case when you start comparing it to killing animals. It just makes you sound crazy.
Sorry if I came across that way, it's early and I haven't had my coffee.
If you had read my other posts on this topic you would know that I'm not attacking anyone here, and I'd appreciate it if you'd try to do the same. :shakehead:

I'll say this yet again: I mean no disrespect to anyone over this. I just feel strongly about this subject (obviously), I like to debate it, and I see a pretty big double standard presented by the religious argument.

Also, I wasn't equating circ to killing animals - I was pointing out that some religious rituals have already been outlawed in this country, but since they aren't a "big" religion or a socially acceptable ritual, no one cares that their religious "rights" have been taken away. Double standard.

[hippydippymama]

~~~~~~~
Oh and FTR, I think this is one of the most civil circ debates I have ever seen, well done ladies!

:agreed: I wish people would stop misconstruing this debate as personal attacks....I have seen none yet but it sucks that whenever any debate gets going someone has to cry, "mommy wars!" Are we incapable of having an intelligent discussion without someone accidentally getting their feelers hurt?

[Danni]

:agreed: I wish people would stop misconstruing this debate as personal attacks....I have seen none yet but it sucks that whenever any debate gets going someone has to cry, "mommy wars!" Are we incapable of having an intelligent discussion without someone accidentally getting their feelers hurt?

I agree Jill. This thread is in HB and therefore people should expect debate from both sides.

[Heather]

I think the personal attacks part comes into play because people are throwing out infammatory terms like genital mutilation which for most of us on the circ side of this really really doesn't compute. My sons had a minor procedure, done in a hospital, by a surgeon. They have fully functioning, happy boy parts. they are NOT mutilated and it ridiculous in my mind to use that term. My husband is not mutilated and I think if you polled a billion circusized men, you'd find an incredibly low number who regret it or feel mutilated.
I also agree that to compare it to animal scarifice or what *I* know of female circumcision or FGM to be somewhat ridiculous. I know y'all don't but I do.


There ARE some real reasons and medical reasons that support for circumcision. Not just be certain religions but also by some physicians. The AAP statement makes that clear. They may not be valid in YOUR minds and you're entitled to that but this isn't some crazy, cruel, out there religious ritual.

[Heather]

In terms of a convincing debate, I think y'all make a far better argument when you talk about the fact that it's unnecessary surgery performed on infants. That argument holds a lot of water for me. All surgeries come with an element of risk no matter how small.
I think routinely circing north american males because studies show a decreased risk of HIV, herpes and HPV is interesting, but not all that compelling given that STDs can be prevented far more effectively by using condoms. THOSE arguments are well worth discussion and debate in my mind, but it's hard to feel like it's a real debate when people use the whole "mutilation" argument.

[Danni]

I am so glad you came back. I was hoping a pro circ personwould return.

Woudl you mind addressing a question here that I have asked a few tiems and no one has answered?

The rates around the world are so much lower than the states. A country like here in Poland it is almost never performed. Yet there are not these problems that are associated with intact penises, they have almost no issues with what is said to be reasons to circ.

So my question is why the do the docs in countries like here so rarely have to perform a cir on an older child or adult if non circing has so many problems, if it is so beneficial why isn;t most of the restof the world doing it? If other countries do not have these problems that circing supposedly takes care of then what is the need in the states?


I know that is jumbled, but do the questions make sense?

[Heather]

I am so glad you came back. I was hoping a pro circ personwould return.

Woudl you mind addressing a question here that I have asked a few tiems and no one has answered?

The rates around the world are so much lower than the states. A country like here in Poland it is almost never performed. Yet there are not these problems that are associated with intact penises, they have almost no issues with what is said to be reasons to circ.

So my question is why the do the docs in countries like here so rarely have to perform a cir on an older child or adult if non circing has so many problems, if it is so beneficial why isn;t most of the restof the world doing it? If other countries do not have these problems that circing supposedly takes care of then what is the need in the states?


I know that is jumbled, but do the questions make sense?

I'd like to see that question posed to a urologist and hear them answer. I'm just a mom kwim? So my answer to that is pure speculation.
My best guess is that in cultures where NO ONE is circ'd, they will go to great lengths to preserve the foreskin. I think they also value foreskin enough that infections or issues that arise are delt with medically (as in using medicine not surgery) over and over again where as in places where many, if not most boys are circ'd and there are some medical problems, circ'ing is seen as a quick, easy fix. It's like the attitude is why not? rather than why? I certainly hope in modern countries, that the parents make informed consents and are given the options to try medical treatment and conservative management and told what the benefits are and likewise what the benefits and risks are by delaing with the issue surgically.

In Canada where circ'ing is common place but certainly nowhere near as common as in the USA and hasn't been for many many generations, the medical circ rate on uncirc'd boys is only about 10%. What that stat means to different people is obviously different right? Some epople think it's proof positive that surgeons here don't do enough to preserve the forskin and are too quick to circ.

Ben gets kidney stones and is followed by a totally hot, sexy, super nice, awesome, urologist. I'm going to try to work up the courage to ask him your circ questions next time I see him. LOL

[hippydippymama]

I agree that the word mutilation might seem harsh. I don't think the people that are using it are intending it as such, though. FGM used to be referred to as female circumcision until human rights activists lobbied to have the term changed to mutilation, to illustrate the severity of the issue. And as I said earlier in this thread (or maybe it was theother one), the definition of mutilation is removal of a body part. That's what circumcision is. I try not to throw around the term mutilation because I know it makes people defensive, but that's the reasoning behind other people using it.

[Purple]

i wish and pray that when we have another baby, its another girl, solely for this reason

[nini02]

I think the personal attacks part comes into play because people are throwing out infammatory terms like genital mutilation which for most of us on the circ side of this really really doesn't compute. My sons had a minor procedure, done in a hospital, by a surgeon. They have fully functioning, happy boy parts. they are NOT mutilated and it ridiculous in my mind to use that term. My husband is not mutilated and I think if you polled a billion circusized men, you'd find an incredibly low number who regret it or feel mutilated.
I also agree that to compare it to animal scarifice or what *I* know of female circumcision or FGM to be somewhat ridiculous. I know y'all don't but I do.


There ARE some real reasons and medical reasons that support for circumcision. Not just be certain religions but also by some physicians. The AAP statement makes that clear. They may not be valid in YOUR minds and you're entitled to that but this isn't some crazy, cruel, out there religious ritual.
I would just like to repeat - I am not equating circing with anything, as in saying they are equal, I'm just saying that they can both be a religious act, so if you want one protected for that reason then why not the other? Religious freedom, right? There are religious rites that are against the law already and no one seems to mind, so the "I don't want the gov. in my religion" argument is one I don't get.

I'm not saying that RIC = killing animals. I'm sorry that so many are taking it that way, that isn't what I mean.

Anyway, sorry if I seem to be stuck on that tangent. It's a question I've had for a long time and have never gotten a good answer too.
~~~~~~~
I steer clear of the word mutilation too. I know some people use it and I understand why, but I personally don't think it (usually) helps anyone to use such a harsh term.

[Heather]

Mutilation does NOT simply mean removal of a body part PUH LEASE. LOL
It comes from the word MAIM and implies to cripple, to permanently destroy and essential part.

You don't see poeple refering to nose or boobs jobs as mutilation or appendectomies. The list goes on. We don't even talk about "mutilation" with ear and tail docking in pets and that can be removal of an entire limb, not a wee peice of skin, leaving a fully functioning organ.

Merriam Webster:

mutilation

3 entries found.

<LI selected="selected">mutilate (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mutilate)
female genital mutilation (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/female%20genital%20mutilation)
self- (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-)





Main Entry: mu·ti·late http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?mutila01.wav=mutilate')) Pronunciation: \ˈmyü-tə-ˌlāt\ Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): mu·ti·lat·ed; mu·ti·lat·ing Etymology: Latin mutilatus, past participle of mutilare, from mutilus truncated, maimed Date: 1534 1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect <the child mutilated the book with his scissors> 2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of : cripple (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cripple) synonyms see maim (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/maim)

it




You want a nice debate don't use inflammatory words that imply people have maimed their children :shakehead:
~~~~~~~
i wish and pray that when we have another baby, its another girl, solely for this reason


Oh yeah baby. I'm going for my 20 week ultrasound, I have two circ'd boys (who SLEPT through their circs) and a dh who has strong religious feelings about circing and I soooo hope I just don't have to think about it.

[My3Monkeys]

That's the first time I've seen the AAP's official policy. I agree it shows arguments on both sides.


I think this is actually their official policy statement:

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;103/3/686

the summary at the end of the statement:


Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In the case of circumcision, in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. It is legitimate for parents to take into account cultural, religious, and ethnic traditions, in addition to the medical factors, when making this decision. Analgesia is safe and effective in reducing the procedural pain associated with circumcision; therefore, if a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided. If circumcision is performed in the newborn period, it should only be done on infants who are stable and healthy.

[urchin_grey]

I didn't see her attacking you, she was asking questions back to you. And you mentioned the animal sacrifice but glossed over FGM. I'm curious too, if you think that MGM should be ok for religious reasons then do you support FGM too and why?

The last part of your post though is rather snarky. Was that called for?

-hugglesquish-

[urchin_grey]

I don't believe in ear/tail docking either. :giggle:

[Heather]

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org...rics;103/3/686 (http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;103/3/686)

the summary at the end of the statement:

Quote:

Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In the case of circumcision, in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision. It is legitimate for parents to take into account cultural, religious, and ethnic traditions, in addition to the medical factors, when making this decision. Analgesia is safe and effective in reducing the procedural pain associated with circumcision; therefore, if a decision for circumcision is made, procedural analgesia should be provided. If circumcision is performed in the newborn period, it should only be done on infants who are stable and healthy.
__________________
~Becky~ mom to 3 cute kiddos :wub:


Anything about that sound like maiming or mutilation or a proceudre that is completely without merit?

I wholeheartedly agree that it's unnecessary, that it's not without risk, that it's largely cosmetic. I don't expect anyone else to circ their child but nor do I think I could debate this until you all would agree with my decidion to do it. But given that AAP statement, could you really take away the option for people who want it and who strongly believe that this an importnat religious covenant?

[hippydippymama]

Ugh. Fine. Make me copy and paste.

Free Online Dictionary says:
DIV.Ov{width:550px}mu·ti·late (myhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oomacr.gifthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifl-http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif) tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates 1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/batter)1.
3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

Merrian-Webster says:

mu·ti·late http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?mutila01.wav=mutilate')) Pronunciation: \ˈmyü-tə-ˌlāt\ Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): mu·ti·lat·ed; mu·ti·lat·ing Etymology: Latin mutilatus, past participle of mutilare, from mutilus truncated, maimed Date: 1534 1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect <the child mutilated the book with his scissors> 2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of : cripple (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cripple) synonyms see maim (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/maim)

— mu·ti·la·tion http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?mutila02.wav=mutilation')) \ˌmyü-tə-ˈlā-shən\ noun
— mu·ti·la·tor http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?mutila03.wav=mutilator')) \ˈmyü-tə-ˌlā-tər\ noun
~~~~~~~
I guess the argument lies in whether or not foreskin is "essential" and if removing it would make the child "imperfect", then.

[Heather]

Ugh. Fine. Make me copy and paste.

Free Online Dictionary says:
DIV.Ov{width:550px}mu·ti·late (myhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/oomacr.gifthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifl-http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gif) tr.v. mu·ti·lat·ed, mu·ti·lat·ing, mu·ti·lates 1. To deprive of a limb or an essential part; cripple.
2. To disfigure by damaging irreparably: mutilate a statue. See Synonyms at batter (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/batter)1.
3. To make imperfect by excising or altering parts.

Merrian-Webster says:

mu·ti·late http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?mutila01.wav=mutilate')) Pronunciation: \ˈmyü-tə-ˌlāt\ Function: transitive verb Inflected Form(s): mu·ti·lat·ed; mu·ti·lat·ing Etymology: Latin mutilatus, past participle of mutilare, from mutilus truncated, maimed Date: 1534 1 : to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect <the child mutilated the book with his scissors> 2 : to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of : cripple (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cripple) synonyms see maim (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/maim)

— mu·ti·la·tion http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?mutila02.wav=mutilation')) \ˌmyü-tə-ˈlā-shən\ noun
— mu·ti·la·tor http://www.merriam-webster.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?mutila03.wav=mutilator')) \ˈmyü-tə-ˌlā-tər\ noun


Right, so aren't we saying the same thing? How does circumcison equal maiming, destroying a limb or crippling? I iz confused.

[hippydippymama]

Right, so aren't we saying the same thing? How does circumcison equal maiming, destroying a limb or crippling? I iz confused.

See the second part of my post.

[Heather]

I guess. I really can't see how anyone can say it's maiming, crippling, mutilating or destroying. I guess someone might take that side, I just can't see it. A circumcised penis can still perform all the functions an uncircumsized one can so......

[hippydippymama]

I guess. I really can't see how anyone can say it's maiming, crippling, mutilating or destroying. I guess someone might take that side, I just can't see it. A circumcised penis can still perform all the functions an uncircumsized one can so......

Basically, yes. Most of them can. The question is whether those functions are impaired, and how significantly. Sure most circumcized men won't have problems, just like most kids who ride without car seats won't get in wrecks, and most people who do drugs won't overdose and die. Not intending to be snarky, just trying to offer an understandable analogy. It's up to the person in question to decide whether those risks are worth taking, I guess.

[Heather]

Basically, yes. Most of them can. The question is whether those functions are impaired, and how significantly. Sure most circumcized men won't have problems, just like most kids who ride without car seats won't get in wrecks, and most people who do drugs won't overdose and die. Not intending to be snarky, just trying to offer an understandable analogy. It's up to the person in question to decide whether those risks are worth taking, I guess.

But there can be functional problems with uncirc'd men too.....

I'm not being snarky either. I actually sometimes feel badly that I might be pissing off mamas for whom this is a really big issue.I respect their opinion and feelings about it even though I don't feel the same way.
For me it's neither here nor there. I could have gone either way and I can see all sides. I'm just interested in this debate because almost every other online debate I've seen the circ people get run off pretty early on or are afraid to speak up at all because they are so villified. I'm also procrastinating-- some really bad jobs are waiting for me when I push away from the computer ;)

[clothbaby]

I guess. I really can't see how anyone can say it's maiming, crippling, mutilating or destroying. I guess someone might take that side, I just can't see it. A circumcised penis can still perform all the functions an uncircumsized one can so......

Actually foreskin does have function so removing it would be altering the functions of the penis.

[Heather]

Actually foreskin does have function so removing it would be altering the functions of the penis.


The foreskin has a function sure, but it is clearly not essential. If the penis's function is urination and sex those functions are still there. I guess I could agree to an argument that the foreskin was destroyed or maimed (as any surgically removed body part would be) I just don't think it holds water to say that the PENIS is destroyed, mutilated or maimed. I'll bow out now. I think we're going in circles and I'm just repeating myself as are others.

I'll never convince die hard intactivists that circ'ing is ok and I don't mean to try.

[Jenga]

wow...

[Sadieanne]

I agree that the word mutilation might seem harsh. I don't think the people that are using it are intending it as such, though. FGM used to be referred to as female circumcision until human rights activists lobbied to have the term changed to mutilation, to illustrate the severity of the issue. And as I said earlier in this thread (or maybe it was theother one), the definition of mutilation is removal of a body part. That's what circumcision is. I try not to throw around the term mutilation because I know it makes people defensive, but that's the reasoning behind other people using it.

Um, I just had the realization that my tonsillectomy at age five left me mutilated!!
:imok:

[hippydippymama]

Um, I just had the realization that my tonsillectomy at age five left me mutilated!!
:imok:

:toofunny: Good use of that smiley!

[Sadieanne]

:toofunny: Good use of that smiley!

Thanks, I've been WAITING for a good time to slip it in!

[Danni]

The foreskin has a function sure, but it is clearly not essential. If the penis's function is urination and sex those functions are still there. I guess I could agree to an argument that the foreskin was destroyed or maimed (as any surgically removed body part would be) I just don't think it holds water to say that the PENIS is destroyed, mutilated or maimed. I'll bow out now. I think we're going in circles and I'm just repeating myself as are others.

I'll never convince die hard intactivists that circ'ing is ok and I don't mean to try.

I agree that we are starting to go in circles. But I think we have had a really good discussion an debate! Again well done ladies! Thanks for the aspects from both sides! :clapclap:

[Jenandfam]

That is Female Genital Cutting which refers to partial or total removal of the outer genitals. It is only one, and the MOST extreme and most RARE, form of female circumcision.

Girls are still circumcised in other countries the same way our boys are here. The hood of the clitoris is removed. This is certainly not as bad as FGC but if anyone were to suggest that you should do ANYTHING to your baby daughter's clit, you'd surely be outraged. Yet no one blinks an eye when the same thing is done to a boy.

THAT is the comparison here.

I know I am way late on this, but why do people, time and time again compare the two?
There is no comparison because baby girls are not circumcised for the same reasons baby boys are. Removing the clitoris so she will not be able to enjoy sex later on in life is a sexual assault and should be condemned. Baby boys are circ'ed for cleanliness, religious reasons, (and a dumb one here), appearance. You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare female circumcision to male circumcision. They are not the same thing.

[Jenandfam]

Ok, so I thought I had responded to this thread already, but couldn't find th OP... but just now realized I had, based on my rep ? So I apologize for saying the same thing twice. I've only had one cup of coffee so far this morning :)

[thetoastercoaster]

I know I am way late on this, but why do people, time and time again compare the two?
There is no comparison because baby girls are not circumcised for the same reasons baby boys are. Removing the clitoris so she will not be able to enjoy sex later on in life is a sexual assault and should be condemned. Baby boys are circ'ed for cleanliness, religious reasons, (and a dumb one here), appearance. You are comparing apples to oranges when you compare female circumcision to male circumcision. They are not the same thing.


Boys are circumcized for religious or social reasons (appearance, daddy is circ so should the kids be) cleanliness is NOT a reason for circing. The penis is self cleaning under the foreskin just like our vagina's. If there is cleanliness issues to an uncut penis then that is due to poor hygeine, NOT because of a foreskin.

[Jenandfam]

Boys are circumcized for religious or social reasons (appearance, daddy is circ so should the kids be) cleanliness is NOT a reason for circing. The penis is self cleaning under the foreskin just like our vagina's. If there is cleanliness issues to an uncut penis then that is due to poor hygeine, NOT because of a foreskin.

Maybe not a logistical reason to you, but for many it is. Whether you agree with that or not. People do circ for cleanliness reasons. Can't argue that FACT. And i wasn't debating the reasons people circ in this country, I was debating female circ vs male circ.

[kattayanna_mom]

I think the reason so many compare female and male circ is because both are a human rights issue and both are routinely removing /altering the body without consent.( not talking about doing so because of birth defects,etc but RIC)

I think even those who are ok with circing their sons would say no way in hell to circing their daughters.

My question is why is one ok but not the other?

[thetoastercoaster]

Maybe not a logistical reason to you, but for many it is. Whether you agree with that or not. People do circ for cleanliness reasons. Can't argue that FACT. And i wasn't debating the reasons people circ in this country, I was debating female circ vs male circ.


You said that you can't compare the two because they are done for different reasons. Female circ is done for religious reasons too. Why is it ok to cut off a body part for a little boy in the name of religion but not ok to do it to a little girl?

[hippydippymama]

WRONG. Female circumcision is done for ALL the same reasons male circumcision is. Because it "looks better." Because it's "cleaner." For religious reasons. For traditional reasons. Not all cultures do it to prevent sexual pleasure, and removing the entire clitoris is actually extremely RARE and is only ONE form of female circumcision! Please, go read up on it some more before you post again.

[jaceraden]

I'm tempted to put that up on my own facebook and see what happens. There's a whole lotta sheep where I come from...

[Jenandfam]

I was under the ASSumption that it was done for sexual reasons, not for all of the above. And (not defending male circ here), but how often is this performed today? Does it really happen *that often? Like every single baby girl that is born in the middle east has it done? Because the only place I've ever even heard about it was in the circ debates.
I mean, is it really *that common?

[Jenandfam]

I was under the ASSumption that it was done for sexual reasons, not for all of the above. And (not defending male circ here), but how often is this performed today? Does it really happen *that often? Like every single baby girl that is born in the middle east has it done? Because the only place I've ever even heard about it was in the circ debates.
I mean, is it really *that common?

Ok, so I stand corrected. (however, I still feel there is no similarity between male and female circ). What else could I possibly have to do at 4 am besides research female circumcision? :)

I guess it depends which articles you read as far as the reasons for it go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting)


Amnesty International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesty_International) estimates that over 130 million women worldwide have been affected by some form of FGM, with over 2 million procedures being performed every year. FGM is mainly practiced in African countries.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#cite_note-31)



http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_cirm.htm)
FGM is a social custom, not a religious practice



http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/ (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/)

An estimated 100 to 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM.

Causes

The causes of female genital mutilation include a mix of cultural, religious and social factors within families and communities.

[hippydippymama]

It's not as common now because it's been outlawed in many places. In fact...and I might have my facts skewed on this, but I remember reading this somewhere....women used to be circumcised IN THE U.S. up until just a few decades ago! Then the women's rights movement came along and put a stop to that.

I'm glad you read up on it a little, although I still don't see how you can't equate the two. They both involve removal of similar genital parts for the same reasons. And IMO they're both human rights violations. :shrug:

[urchin_grey]

It's not as common now because it's been outlawed in many places. In fact...and I might have my facts skewed on this, but I remember reading this somewhere....women used to be circumcised IN THE U.S. up until just a few decades ago! Then the women's rights movement came along and put a stop to that.

I'm glad you read up on it a little, although I still don't see how you can't equate the two. They both involve removal of similar genital parts for the same reasons. And IMO they're both human rights violations. :shrug:

Female circ wasn't illegal in the states until 1996. So not too long ago, that's for sure.

[hippydippymama]

Female circ wasn't illegal in the states until 1996. So not too long ago, that's for sure.

:jawdrop: Wow, I had no idea it was that recent!! I remember reading about it being not too uncommon in the 50s, but I thought it was outlawed shortly after that.

[urchin_grey]

:jawdrop: Wow, I had no idea it was that recent!! I remember reading about it being not too uncommon in the 50s, but I thought it was outlawed shortly after that.

Nope... I mean, I'm not saying it was common in the 90's or anything, but that's when it was actually outlawed.

[cammiesue]

My opinion on this is if men want to fight and make circ for males out lawed then I will listen.

Maybe one reason that female circs was outlawed is that is was women who took up the cause.

Because there has been so much debate here about this I have asked the men in my family and close friends their feelings about it. They all didn't see it as mutilation, and don't think it should be outlawed. Granted this does not prove anything except that it did make me feel like not such a bad person for getting my boys circed. It is not something I regret doing but I was feeling so in the minority that I wanted to see if I was in the minority with my IRL aquantances.

[Jenandfam]

It's not as common now because it's been outlawed in many places. In fact...and I might have my facts skewed on this, but I remember reading this somewhere....women used to be circumcised IN THE U.S. up until just a few decades ago! Then the women's rights movement came along and put a stop to that.

I'm glad you read up on it a little, although I still don't see how you can't equate the two. They both involve removal of similar genital parts for the same reasons. And IMO they're both human rights violations. :shrug:

Because a tiny piece of skin... vs. the entire clitoris, part of the clitoris, the entire labia... is not the same thing. If they were cutting off the entire penis, or part of it... or removing the testicles... who in their right mind would not issues with that? FGM causes MANY women to have permanent damage for the rest of their life. They will never be able to enjoy sex, have scarring inside and out (both mental and physical), painful intercourse, etc. I'm not saying complications from male circumcision do not happen, (because you run that risk with every procedure you may have done in life)... but the vast majority of men who were circe'd at birth, have zero problems. And don't give me one article saying that a lot do, because I call it biased BS :)

[hippydippymama]

Because a tiny piece of skin... vs. the entire clitoris, part of the clitoris, the entire labia... is not the same thing. If they were cutting off the entire penis, or part of it... or removing the testicles... who in their right mind would not issues with that? FGM causes MANY women to have permanent damage for the rest of their life. They will never be able to enjoy sex, have scarring inside and out (both mental and physical), painful intercourse, etc. I'm not saying complications from male circumcision do not happen, (because you run that risk with every procedure you may have done in life)... but the vast majority of men who were circe'd at birth, have zero problems. And don't give me one article saying that a lot do, because I call it biased BS :)

:banghead: Again, you are only referring to ONE, RARE form of female circumcision. I blieve the most common is removing the hood of the clitoris....which, guess what, SERVES THE SAME FUNCTION AS THE FORESKIN. Did you even do any research beyond C&Ping why some cultures circumcise or was that all you looked at?? And yes, the most extreme forms of FGM do cause damage and pain...but most women, that only have the COMMON FORM DONE, have no problems!

My midwife recently did some training in Africa and she said she saw a number of women come in who had the hood of their clitoris removed. It caused them no problems with the birthing. She did see one women that had part of her labia removed, but she had no problems either. She saw NO women that had the whole deal chopped off.

And even if they don't have problems, it doesn't mean that it isn't a human rights violation. If we all started cutting off our babies' pinkie fingers, I bet some people would have a fit about it, even though you can function just fine without them!

Also, that "tiny piece of skin?" Is as big as a postcard when the boy reaches adulthood.

Here's a smiley I thought about posting in my siggie earlier in this conversation:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/barefootpoetry/LOSE.gif

I don't know why I keep coming back to thsi conversation. It's like talking to a brick wall.

[hippydippymama]

Sorry, I didn't mean that you are a brick wall. I didn't mean anything by that. I am just getting really frustrated and this is one subject I get pretty fired up about.

[Jenandfam]

Sorry, I didn't mean that you are a brick wall. I didn't mean anything by that. I am just getting really frustrated and this is one subject I get pretty fired up about.


Yea- I get frusterated when women try to force their parenting decisons on other parents. My son's penis is nobody's business. I should back away from this thread now. We can agree to disagree. :loveshower:

[countrymama2four]

The peni smilies are helmet heads :toofunny:


...just sayin' :err:

[mom2grrls]

Because a tiny piece of skin... vs. the entire clitoris, part of the clitoris, the entire labia... is not the same thing. If they were cutting off the entire penis, or part of it... or removing the testicles... who in their right mind would not issues with that?>>>>>

Cutting off the foreskin is cutting off part of the penis on an infant, they are fused together at birth, the foreskin does not separate until later on. Do you know how big a clitoral hood is vs. how big a foreskin is?

[hippydippymama]

Yea- I get frusterated when women try to force their parenting decisons on other parents. My son's penis is nobody's business. I should back away from this thread now. We can agree to disagree. :loveshower:

Nobody's forcing anything on you. I was just trying to correct your erroneous statements. There is a lot of misinformation regarding circ out there and I think that is why the rate is so high.

Anyway, agreeing to disagree, etc. etc.

[urchin_grey]

The peni smilies are helmet heads :toofunny:


...just sayin' :err:


Not this one.
:dancingdick:

[hippydippymama]

Not this one.
:dancingdick:

Yup, I love the intact smiley!

[cammiesue]

Not this one.
:dancingdick:

Maybe I've been cooking too many sweet potatoes - but that always looks like a sweet potatoe or squash to me.

[Danni]

Maybe I've been cooking too many sweet potatoes - but that always looks like a sweet potatoe or squash to me.

Nope...it's an intact penis!

[Jenandfam]

Nobody's forcing anything on you. I was just trying to correct your erroneous statements. There is a lot of misinformation regarding circ out there and I think that is why the rate is so high.

Anyway, agreeing to disagree, etc. etc.


I guess "force" was the wrong word... (because nobody forced me in my decision). "Judging" would have been a better one.

[hippydippymama]

I guess "force" was the wrong word... (because nobody forced me in my decision). "Judging" would have been a better one.

Well, I get judged each and every day for my parenting decisions. You should have seen my blog when I was pregnant with Jacob and planning an HBAC. Every single day I had slews of comments telling me that I was stupid, that I was foolhardy, that I just wanted a "good experience," that I was going to wind up with a dead baby, that they hoped I had good insurance in case I brain-damaged my son, that I was an ignorant little girl who'd been brainwashed by the media, oh it went on and on. At first it really upset me, sinc I was pregnant and all, and that kind of stuff is the last thing a pregnant woman wants to hear. But in the end, it did not change my decision. That kind of stuff comes from the heart. If a bunch of people on the internet are going to change your mind about something then maybe you weren't sincere in your heart about it in the first place. KWIM?

It continues to this day. I get judged for a lot of things. I don't care. It doesn't affect my stance on things because I know I am making the right decisions.

[urchin_grey]

Maybe I've been cooking too many sweet potatoes - but that always looks like a sweet potatoe or squash to me.

:toofunny:

Well the code for that one is -dancingd*ck- and its under "adult". So I'm pretty sure its not a sweet pot. :err:

[clothbaby]

Well, I get judged each and every day for my parenting decisions. You should have seen my blog when I was pregnant with Jacob and planning an HBAC. Every single day I had slews of comments telling me that I was stupid, that I was foolhardy, that I just wanted a "good experience," that I was going to wind up with a dead baby, that they hoped I had good insurance in case I brain-damaged my son, that I was an ignorant little girl who'd been brainwashed by the media, oh it went on and on. At first it really upset me, sinc I was pregnant and all, and that kind of stuff is the last thing a pregnant woman wants to hear. But in the end, it did not change my decision. That kind of stuff comes from the heart. If a bunch of people on the internet are going to change your mind about something then maybe you weren't sincere in your heart about it in the first place. KWIM?

It continues to this day. I get judged for a lot of things. I don't care. It doesn't affect my stance on things because I know I am making the right decisions.

I read your home birth story it is beautiful :) and very inspirational !!!

[hippydippymama]

I read your home birth story it is beautiful :) and very inspirational !!!

Thank you! :loveshower:

[Jenandfam]

Well, I get judged each and every day for my parenting decisions. You should have seen my blog when I was pregnant with Jacob and planning an HBAC. Every single day I had slews of comments telling me that I was stupid, that I was foolhardy, that I just wanted a "good experience," that I was going to wind up with a dead baby, that they hoped I had good insurance in case I brain-damaged my son, that I was an ignorant little girl who'd been brainwashed by the media, oh it went on and on. At first it really upset me, sinc I was pregnant and all, and that kind of stuff is the last thing a pregnant woman wants to hear. But in the end, it did not change my decision. That kind of stuff comes from the heart. If a bunch of people on the internet are going to change your mind about something then maybe you weren't sincere in your heart about it in the first place. KWIM?

It continues to this day. I get judged for a lot of things. I don't care. It doesn't affect my stance on things because I know I am making the right decisions.

As do I... I feel I made the right decision as a parent, to circ my son... so why do *I* time and time again, get chastized by members of the "anti-circ" brigade? Why can't "we" as mother's accept another parent's decision, even if it's not one that they would have chosen? (Notice I said "accept", not "agree".) Why are there debates anyway? LOL. Why can't we just embrace one another as MOTHER'S because both you and I know, as we sit here and type or responses, that mother's have the hardest job in the world. Why can't we just accept that mother's make different choices... and move on?

[Naturallia]

I personally haven't used any harsh terms... Just sayin'.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue with anyone, what's done is done.

That bottom line is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it ain't yours, don't cut it off. And what's done cannot be undone, but what's undone can be done later, if need be.

The end.

QFT

[Naturallia]

Ok, just read the whole thing.

Now I'm curious. Those of you who circ'ed... where did you get the information on benefits that made you decide it's best for your son? And did your husband insist strongly on it and influenced the decision or not? Did you or your husband see your son get circ'ed? And did you do a full hospital surgical circ or just a little Jewish ritual where just the tip is cut?

[Danni]

[/I][/B]

As do I... I feel I made the right decision as a parent, to circ my son... so why do *I* time and time again, get chastized by members of the "anti-circ" brigade? Why can't "we" as mother's accept another parent's decision, even if it's not one that they would have chosen? (Notice I said "accept", not "agree".) Why are there debates anyway? LOL. Why can't we just embrace one another as MOTHER'S because both you and I know, as we sit here and type or responses, that mother's have the hardest job in the world. Why can't we just accept that mother's make different choices... and move on?

I haven't seen anyone judging you. Those of us on the anit-circ side do our best to inform those who don't know that there are options. Because so many people do it just because they think it is what people are supposed to do. You did your research...great. but many people do not. Some of the moms that were on this thread said that they would have done it if it were not for people on boards like this who did talk about it a lot and opened their minds to the fact that it is not necessary and is a cosmetic procedure.

And yes, your right, moms have the hardest jobs and part of it is researching many topics. But how are people supposed to even know to research that topic if they never knew that there is another option?

Why can't we just accept that mother's make different choices... and move on?

And to this...I accept that you made that choice, but I am here to inform others. If you feel the need to move on then go right on ahead. Otherwise just keep coming back and saying the same thing like you have been.

And I will say this again, because you don't seem to get it. For those of us who are anti-circ it is a human rights issue. So to us it is more than just a parents choice, this is something being done against another human without their permission. To us it is wrong, this is not on the same level as BF vs FF or co-sleeping vs crib. This is in a whole other ball park.

[Naturallia]

Tried to rep you Danni, but I think you hit it on the head when it's a humans right issue.

[hippydippymama]

And to this...I accept that you made that choice, but I am here to inform others. If you feel the need to move on then go right on ahead. Otherwise just keep coming back and saying the same thing like you have been.

And I will say this again, because you don't seem to get it. For those of us who are anti-circ it is a human rights issue. So to us it is more than just a parents choice, this is something being done against another human without their permission. To us it is wrong, this is not on the same level as BF vs FF or co-sleeping vs crib. This is in a whole other ball park.

:thankyou: This is pretty much verbatim what I was going to say!

[elabela]

:jawdrop: Wow, I had no idea it was that recent!! I remember reading about it being not too uncommon in the 50s, but I thought it was outlawed shortly after that.

Yup, and it was even covered under different insurance companies in the US(Blue Cross Blue Shield for sure, I'd have to check my resource binders at home for the others)

People like to think it's only something "those people"(Africans, Muslims, Animists, take your pick) do, when the reality is so so different.

[Jenandfam]

I haven't seen anyone judging you. Those of us on the anit-circ side do our best to inform those who don't know that there are options. Because so many people do it just because they think it is what people are supposed to do. You did your research...great. but many people do not. Some of the moms that were on this thread said that they would have done it if it were not for people on boards like this who did talk about it a lot and opened their minds to the fact that it is not necessary and is a cosmetic procedure.

And yes, your right, moms have the hardest jobs and part of it is researching many topics. But how are people supposed to even know to research that topic if they never knew that there is another option?



And to this...I accept that you made that choice, but I am here to inform others. If you feel the need to move on then go right on ahead. Otherwise just keep coming back and saying the same thing like you have been.

And I will say this again, because you don't seem to get it. For those of us who are anti-circ it is a human rights issue. So to us it is more than just a parents choice, this is something being done against another human without their permission. To us it is wrong, this is not on the same level as BF vs FF or co-sleeping vs crib. This is in a whole other ball park.

Oh I get it- I just don't agree with it

[countrymama2four]

Ok, just read the whole thing.

Now I'm curious. Those of you who circ'ed... where did you get the information on benefits that made you decide it's best for your son? And did your husband insist strongly on it and influenced the decision or not? Did you or your husband see your son get circ'ed? And did you do a full hospital surgical circ or just a little Jewish ritual where just the tip is cut?


Same place you probably did...the wonderful world of the internet, where you can find anything to support any cause.
Hubby was there for both as I was still recovering from c-sections.

I just have to say that trying to make *your* (general anti-circs) point by saying we mutilated our sons penis and took away human rights is just a bunch of BS. Like it was said, we are moms, we have THE hardest job and putting mothers down who circ just does not make a good point. It's not a point blank put down....but "our sons have mutilated penii and we take away human rights" is a straight up put down.

Why is it that the non-circing moms are right and the circumsizing moms are wrong... just brick walls.

I love debates and I am ALWAYS willing to listen, learn and possibly change my mind but this is something I feel strongly about, as I know the non-circ moms feel. I could care less if anyone agrees with me. I don't need the whole country or whole world to agree with me to feel comfortable about MY decision...I took away from our sons.
~~~~~~~


And I will say this again, because you don't seem to get it. For those of us who are anti-circ it is a human rights issue. So to us it is more than just a parents choice, this is something being done against another human without their permission. To us it is wrong, this is not on the same level as BF vs FF or co-sleeping vs crib. This is in a whole other ball park.

Am I ASSuming that since we circed, we don't get it. That's just funny. We don't get it because we disagree?

[Danni]

I just have to say that trying to make *your* (general anti-circs) point by saying we mutilated our sons penis and took away human rights is just a bunch of BS. Like it was said, we are moms, we have THE hardest job and putting mothers down who circ just does not make a good point. It's not a point blank put down....but "our sons have mutilated penii and we take away human rights" is a straight up put down.
Am I ASSuming that since we circed, we don't get it. That's just funny. We don't get it because we disagree?

I agree that by calling it mutilation it is horribly offensive. I do not call it that. I sort of go with the "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" theory on that one.

But I still do think it is a human rights issue.

As for the last bolded part, that was not a statement made to all of you circing moms. But to that one person, who just kept saying the same thing over and over as if she had not read anything we said. It was not because we disagree, but rather that she responded the same way over and over without acknowledging what some of us said. It was a specific to one person "you", not the general you..gotta love the english language!

As for me and my beliefs, I do respect you as a mom and I also respect your choices that you made, and those of you who made that choice after doing research and thinking hard should feel fine in your decision.

For me, the reason that I do take part in these threads is that I hope a mama who has not yet made that decision and maybe never even thought to research it will. I think for many parents it is just an automatic choice, no thought given to it because it is just what most people do in the states. It is those people I hope to reach in discussions like this.

I live in a part of the world where it is done so rarely and there are so few complications form being left intact, so I know that all this research saying that it makes such a difference is horribly skewed.

[countrymama2four]

I do understand giving facts and other options instead of following the *norm*. I just don't get the extreme measures some use to get that point across.

[Shopaholic]

Ok, just read the whole thing.

Now I'm curious. Those of you who circ'ed... where did you get the information on benefits that made you decide it's best for your son? And did your husband insist strongly on it and influenced the decision or not? Did you or your husband see your son get circ'ed? And did you do a full hospital surgical circ or just a little Jewish ritual where just the tip is cut?

We circed our first
1) I did not a tiny bit of research
2) DH thought it was a good idea but also did not research
3) I refused to see it done, DH went. I had a sinking feeling during the whole time I was away and he was getting circed and I felt it wasn't right and I should have stood up then and said, "NO!"
4) full hospital circ. They wanted to send us home the same day that they did the circ. I said no that we'd do it the day prior to me leaving.

I don't regret that I did it b/c I did what I did and I can't change it. I DO regret that I had that feeling it wasn't right for us and I let it happen anyway. Now I stand for what I beleive in/feel strongly about.

[cammiesue]

Ok, just read the whole thing.

Now I'm curious. Those of you who circ'ed... where did you get the information on benefits that made you decide it's best for your son? And did your husband insist strongly on it and influenced the decision or not? Did you or your husband see your son get circ'ed? And did you do a full hospital surgical circ or just a little Jewish ritual where just the tip is cut?

1 I got the information from the hospitals where the boys where at, the nurses and dr's.

2. I left most of the decision up to DH after we read the material together. I felt that as I didn't have a penis I would leave the bulk of the decision to DH.

3. I was with both boys for the surgery.

4. It was a hospital surgical circ.

[Jenandfam]

Same place you probably did...the wonderful world of the internet, where you can find anything to support any cause.
Hubby was there for both as I was still recovering from c-sections.

I just have to say that trying to make *your* (general anti-circs) point by saying we mutilated our sons penis and took away human rights is just a bunch of BS. Like it was said, we are moms, we have THE hardest job and putting mothers down who circ just does not make a good point. It's not a point blank put down....but "our sons have mutilated penii and we take away human rights" is a straight up put down.

Why is it that the non-circing moms are right and the circumsizing moms are wrong... just brick walls.



I love debates and I am ALWAYS willing to listen, learn and possibly change my mind but this is something I feel strongly about, as I know the non-circ moms feel. I could care less if anyone agrees with me. I don't need the whole country or whole world to agree with me to feel comfortable about MY decision...I took away from our sons.
~~~~~~~


Am I ASSuming that since we circed, we don't get it. That's just funny. We don't get it because we disagree?


What *I* would like to know is, the same people who are anti circ- saying it's a "human rights" violation, and they won't "permently alter their son's body without his permission"... do you vax? Don't vax? Because, after all, YOU as his parent are the one who has to make that choice for him. You could be potentially altering him for the rest of his life too (don't forget), by either VAXING or NOT vaxing him.
~~~~~~~
I agree that by calling it mutilation it is horribly offensive. I do not call it that. I sort of go with the "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar" theory on that one.

But I still do think it is a human rights issue.

As for the last bolded part, that was not a statement made to all of you circing moms. But to that one person, who just kept saying the same thing over and over as if she had not read anything we said. It was not because we disagree, but rather that she responded the same way over and over without acknowledging what some of us said. It was a specific to one person "you", not the general you..gotta love the english language!

As for me and my beliefs, I do respect you as a mom and I also respect your choices that you made, and those of you who made that choice after doing research and thinking hard should feel fine in your decision.

For me, the reason that I do take part in these threads is that I hope a mama who has not yet made that decision and maybe never even thought to research it will. I think for many parents it is just an automatic choice, no thought given to it because it is just what most people do in the states. It is those people I hope to reach in discussions like this.

I live in a part of the world where it is done so rarely and there are so few complications form being left intact, so I know that all this research saying that it makes such a difference is horribly skewed.

I read what you said. I will say it again, doesn't mean "I don't get it"... just means that I don't agree with you.

[clothbaby]

What *I* would like to know is, the same people who are anti circ- saying it's a "human rights" violation, and they won't "permently alter their son's body without his permission"... do you vax? Don't vax? Because, after all, YOU as his parent are the one who has to make that choice for him. You could be potentially altering him for the rest of his life too (don't forget), by either VAXING or NOT vaxing him.
~~~~~~~


I read what you said. I will say it again, doesn't mean "I don't get it"... just means that I don't agree with you.

what is the comparison between vaxing and circ'ing ? how does a vax alter him for the rest of his life LIKE cutting off part of his body ? not being snarky i really don't understand what you are saying ?

[naughtymonkey]

Ok, just read the whole thing.

Now I'm curious. Those of you who circ'ed... where did you get the information on benefits that made you decide it's best for your son? And did your husband insist strongly on it and influenced the decision or not? Did you or your husband see your son get circ'ed? And did you do a full hospital surgical circ or just a little Jewish ritual where just the tip is cut?

I did a little bit of research.
My dh really wanted it done. He wants the new baby circ'd too.
We both went with Haydn when they did his circ
It was a full hospital circ.

In some ways I regret having Haydn circ'd but I did what I felt was best at the time. That's a lot of what parenting is about.....making the best decision at the time with the information that you have. I don't really want to have the next one circ'd but I might if dh continues to insist. The man never, ever expresses much of an opinion in what is done with our child(ren), and when he does I know it's cause it's something very important to him. I try to respect that. I'll sit down with him with all the info that I've got and we'll make a decision together when it gets closer to time.

[hippydippymama]

What *I* would like to know is, the same people who are anti circ- saying it's a "human rights" violation, and they won't "permently alter their son's body without his permission"... do you vax? Don't vax? Because, after all, YOU as his parent are the one who has to make that choice for him. You could be potentially altering him for the rest of his life too (don't forget), by either VAXING or NOT vaxing him.


I don't think this is a valid comparison. I don't vax my son. I suppose you are saying I am making the choice to expose him to diseases. Yes, he could catch measles somewhere....but he's not going to trip and fall on a knife that will cut off part of his penis.

You said it yourself...POTENTIALLY altering. The chance of a kid getting a dangerous disease, or a bad reaction from a vaccine, is small. Circing IS altering. I really don't understand this analogy.
~~~~~~~
Also, you are STILL missing the main point of this argument. Anti-circers believe that the boy should have the right to decide FOR HIMSELF. Circumcision can always be done as an adult. Most other decisions we make as parents can't exactly wait till they're 18, can they?

[Maddie&Jake'sMom]

I don't think this is a valid comparison. I don't vax my son. I suppose you are saying I am making the choice to expose him to diseases. Yes, he could catch measles somewhere....but he's not going to trip and fall on a knife that will cut off part of his penis.

You said it yourself...POTENTIALLY altering. The chance of a kid getting a dangerous disease, or a bad reaction from a vaccine, is small. Circing IS altering. I really don't understand this analogy.
~~~~~~~
Also, you are STILL missing the main point of this argument. Anti-circers believe that the boy should have the right to decide FOR HIMSELF. Circumcision can always be done as an adult. Most other decisions we make as parents can't exactly wait till they're 18, can they?
I will just ditto this whole post.

I risked my entire family (who is Jewish, I am not a practicing Jew and married a non-Jew) disowning me over not circing my son. If he chooses to change that when he's older, so be it, but it is NOT my choice to make for him...to just wallop off a part of his own body.

[mom2grrls]

What *I* would like to know is, the same people who are anti circ- saying it's a "human rights" violation, and they won't "permently alter their son's body without his permission"... do you vax? Don't vax? Because, after all, YOU as his parent are the one who has to make that choice for him. You could be potentially altering him for the rest of his life too (don't forget), by either VAXING or NOT vaxing him.>>>>>

The decision for childhood vaccines have to be made in childhood, circumcision does not. Vaccines(the ones that have been around for years) are more effective at preventing the disease they are made for. Vaccines do not permanently alter a part of the body. Circumcision is not an effective measure to prevent anything and it is permanently altering surgery, not a needle poke.

[clothbaby]

What *I* would like to know is, the same people who are anti circ- saying it's a "human rights" violation, and they won't "permently alter their son's body without his permission"... do you vax? Don't vax? Because, after all, YOU as his parent are the one who has to make that choice for him. You could be potentially altering him for the rest of his life too (don't forget), by either VAXING or NOT vaxing him.>>>>>

The decision for childhood vaccines have to be made in childhood, circumcision does not. Vaccines(the ones that have been around for years) are more effective at preventing the disease they are made for. Vaccines do not permanently alter a part of the body. Circumcision is not an effective measure to prevent anything and it is permanently altering surgery, not a needle poke.



well said :)

[Snangel]

In some ways I regret having Haydn circ'd but I did what I felt was best at the time. That's a lot of what parenting is about.....making the best decision at the time with the information that you have. I don't really want to have the next one circ'd but I might if dh continues to insist. The man never, ever expresses much of an opinion in what is done with our child(ren), and when he does I know it's cause it's something very important to him. I try to respect that. I'll sit down with him with all the info that I've got and we'll make a decision together when it gets closer to time.

This is the most brought up argument to circ. Why are men so attached to this? http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html

Interestingly enough I am going to assume here but he may be the one with a penis, but you are the one with a foreskin. You are the one who knows what it is like to live your life with whole intact genitals, and to know what it is like to have those genitals protected. Your dh only knows what it is to know that when he was a baby someone took that all from him. A lot of men (and this is often subconscious) their whole identity is wrapped up in their penis, and if it is altered they need to know that it is still ok, thus perpetuating circ.

If you would like please ask me and I can send you some information to bring up to your dh, just let me know. :bighug:

[hippydippymama]

This is the most brought up argument to circ. Why are men so attached to this? http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html

Interestingly enough I am going to assume here but he may be the one with a penis, but you are the one with a foreskin. You are the one who knows what it is like to live your life with whole intact genitals, and to know what it is like to have those genitals protected. Your dh only knows what it is to know that when he was a baby someone took that all from him. A lot of men (and this is often subconscious) their whole identity is wrapped up in their penis, and if it is altered they need to know that it is still ok, thus perpetuating circ.

If you would like please ask me and I can send you some information to bring up to your dh, just let me know. :bighug:

Good point!

When people say, "DH has the penis," I say, "but it's not HIS penis." I have boobs, if I have a daughter she will have boobs, that doesn't give me the right to give her a boob job if I have one too.
~~~~~~~
P.S. I am not directing that at you Jaime. It's something I have said for a while.

[Jenandfam]

what is the comparison between vaxing and circ'ing ? how does a vax alter him for the rest of his life LIKE cutting off part of his body ? not being snarky i really don't understand what you are saying ?


Because one could argue that by vaxing them, you are potentially putting them at risk for autism- just like the same argument could be used that by not vaxing, you are putting them at risk for diseases.

Just like circ we as parents must make these choices... an infant cannot decide whether he wants to be circed, just like he can't decide weather he wants to be vaxed.

[Jenandfam]

What *I* would like to know is, the same people who are anti circ- saying it's a "human rights" violation, and they won't "permently alter their son's body without his permission"... do you vax? Don't vax? Because, after all, YOU as his parent are the one who has to make that choice for him. You could be potentially altering him for the rest of his life too (don't forget), by either VAXING or NOT vaxing him.>>>>>

The decision for childhood vaccines have to be made in childhood, circumcision does not. Vaccines(the ones that have been around for years) are more effective at preventing the disease they are made for. Vaccines do not permanently alter a part of the body. Circumcision is not an effective measure to prevent anything and it is permanently altering surgery, not a needle poke.



Ah yes, but by that simple needle poke, one could argue with you that it gave their child autism, thus altering their mind for the rest of their life. And by altering their minds, the entire course for their lives is changed.,, by one simple needle poke.

[clothbaby]

Ah yes, but by that simple needle poke, one could argue with you that it gave their child autism, thus altering their mind for the rest of their life. And by altering their minds, the entire course for their lives is changed.,, by one simple needle poke.

There are a lot of studies on the difference in the "minds" of autisic children that they can find as young as 6 weeks to 2 months BEFORE vaccines ....
Can the reaction to a vaccine trigger autism yes I believe it can! And that part is debatable! I don't think its the vaccine itself but the bodies reaction to introducing a virus!

I have a good friend with an unvaccinated child who always showed signs of autism. When he was 18 months he got a horrible flu and lost all his speech. It was not a vaccine but an illness. I have also heard of children having seizures that trigger autism. And yes vaccines can cause seizures.
My point is if you child has autism something at some point will trigger it.

My next point is if a vaccine causes autism or not well that is debatable. If circ removes a part of the body well that is FOR SURE! Circ is cutting off a functioning part of an infants body for NO known medical reason AT THAT TIME.The odds of needing a medical circ are so ridiculously low! You have a WAY higher chance of needing your tonsils or appendix out but no one takes them unless you are sick right?
~~~~~~~
If your child was born and the dr said hey we wont to remove part of his penis his tonsils his appendix and his ears to prevent infection and illness would you go along with that?

My daughter has had 5 ear infections in a year! Should I remove those too?

[naughtymonkey]

This is the most brought up argument to circ. Why are men so attached to this? http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html

Interestingly enough I am going to assume here but he may be the one with a penis, but you are the one with a foreskin. You are the one who knows what it is like to live your life with whole intact genitals, and to know what it is like to have those genitals protected. Your dh only knows what it is to know that when he was a baby someone took that all from him. A lot of men (and this is often subconscious) their whole identity is wrapped up in their penis, and if it is altered they need to know that it is still ok, thus perpetuating circ.

If you would like please ask me and I can send you some information to bring up to your dh, just let me know. :bighug:

Thanks. I've got all the info. I'm only 18wks right now and I'm not looking for an argument right now. We'll sit down and look at it all in another couple of months and we'll make the decision. I'm certainly not going to defer to him just cause he has a penis. We try to make most of these big decisions together. He typically defers to me on most things but I like to get his input cause he participated in creating this life and he will be participating in raising and caring for it.

[Jonah'smom]

Yea- I get frusterated when women try to force their parenting decisons on other parents. My son's penis is nobody's business. I should back away from this thread now. We can agree to disagree. :loveshower:
I agree on this to, I feel tht alot of mama's do this wether it is to do or not do something. There is always going to be a different in parenting tho. It could be me next time stating how i feel about a certin topic and then someone saying this to me who knows. I think we are ALL gulity of "judging" or stating our beliefs out loud towards another mom or dad one time or another.

The peni smilies are helmet heads :toofunny:


...just sayin' :err:
:lmao: just sayin tht was kind of funny.

Well, I get judged each and every day for my parenting decisions. You should have seen my blog when I was pregnant with Jacob and planning an HBAC. Every single day I had slews of comments telling me that I was stupid, that I was foolhardy, that I just wanted a "good experience," that I was going to wind up with a dead baby, that they hoped I had good insurance in case I brain-damaged my son, that I was an ignorant little girl who'd been brainwashed by the media, oh it went on and on. At first it really upset me, sinc I was pregnant and all, and that kind of stuff is the last thing a pregnant woman wants to hear. But in the end, it did not change my decision. That kind of stuff comes from the heart. If a bunch of people on the internet are going to change your mind about something then maybe you weren't sincere in your heart about it in the first place. KWIM?

It continues to this day. I get judged for a lot of things. I don't care. It doesn't affect my stance on things because I know I am making the right decisions.
Again back to my first statment above i think EVERYONE judges everybody. In away I think you are judging djg903 but while she is saying your judging her she is doing right back to you. I feel tht way and I am a circ'ing mom and if i had 25 baby boys I would circ them all *BUT* tht IS my choice b/c I am the mother of them.
[/i][/b]

As do I... I feel I made the right decision as a parent, to circ my son... so why do *I* time and time again, get chastized by members of the "anti-circ" brigade? Why can't "we" as mother's accept another parent's decision, even if it's not one that they would have chosen? (Notice I said "accept", not "agree".) Why are there debates anyway? LOL. Why can't we just embrace one another as MOTHER'S because both you and I know, as we sit here and type or responses, that mother's have the hardest job in the world. Why can't we just accept that mother's make different choices... and move on?
:toofunny::toofunny: I dont agree with you being snarky but this made me chuckle.
Ok, just read the whole thing.

Now I'm curious. Those of you who circ'ed... where did you get the information on benefits that made you decide it's best for your son? And did your husband insist strongly on it and influenced the decision or not? Did you or your husband see your son get circ'ed? And did you do a full hospital surgical circ or just a little Jewish ritual where just the tip is cut?

We did it for the cleaner factor and cuz DH wanted to. And I also wanted to and like i said i would do it again. We had it done in the hospital.

[hippydippymama]

Ah yes, but by that simple needle poke, one could argue with you that it gave their child autism, thus altering their mind for the rest of their life. And by altering their minds, the entire course for their lives is changed.,, by one simple needle poke.

You really just don't get it, do you??

When you circumcise, YOU CIRCUMCISE. There is no "maybe he won't have a foreskin" like "maybe he'll get autism from a vaccine." That is the worst analogy ever.

And like I said earlier, you only have one chance to do childhood vaccines: in childhood. Circumcision can ALWAYS be done later!

Know what the medically necessary circ rate is in countries where it isn't routinely performed on infants? 1 in 14,000. So one man out of every 14,000 who wasn't circed had to go have it done for whatever reason.

[Danni]

Ah yes, but by that simple needle poke, one could argue with you that it gave their child autism, thus altering their mind for the rest of their life. And by altering their minds, the entire course for their lives is changed.,, by one simple needle poke.

One could argue it but anyone with any debating ability could shoot a hole right through that one. Come on this does not even equate to that. And for this lame argument I am pulling out something I have been saving for quite some time, so thanks cuz I have been itching to use it.


http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l248/dhrynio/AlphabetSoup-2.jpg

(And yes I edited it myself and did a junk job, but didn't want to use a naughty word that the filter could not catch.)

[clothbaby]

One could argue it but anyone with any debating ability could shoot a hole right through that one. Come on this does not even equate to that. And for this lame argument I am pulling out something I have been saving for quite some time, so thanks cuz I have been itching to use it.


http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l248/dhrynio/AlphabetSoup-2.jpg

(And yes I edited it myself and did a junk job, but didn't want to use a naughty word that the filter could not catch.)

:toofunny:

[hippydippymama]

One could argue it but anyone with any debating ability could shoot a hole right through that one. Come on this does not even equate to that. And for this lame argument I am pulling out something I have been saving for quite some time, so thanks cuz I have been itching to use it.


http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l248/dhrynio/AlphabetSoup-2.jpg

(And yes I edited it myself and did a junk job, but didn't want to use a naughty word that the filter could not catch.)

:lmao: I second that emotion....errr...I mean lolcat!

[Jenandfam]

There are a lot of studies on the difference in the "minds" of autisic children that they can find as young as 6 weeks to 2 months BEFORE vaccines ....
Can the reaction to a vaccine trigger autism yes I believe it can! And that part is debatable! I don't think its the vaccine itself but the bodies reaction to introducing a virus!

I have a good friend with an unvaccinated child who always showed signs of autism. When he was 18 months he got a horrible flu and lost all his speech. It was not a vaccine but an illness. I have also heard of children having seizures that trigger autism. And yes vaccines can cause seizures.
My point is if you child has autism something at some point will trigger it.

My next point is if a vaccine causes autism or not well that is debatable. If circ removes a part of the body well that is FOR SURE! Circ is cutting off a functioning part of an infants body for NO known medical reason AT THAT TIME.The odds of needing a medical circ are so ridiculously low! You have a WAY higher chance of needing your tonsils or appendix out but no one takes them unless you are sick right?
~~~~~~~
If your child was born and the dr said hey we wont to remove part of his penis his tonsils his appendix and his ears to prevent infection and illness would you go along with that?

My daughter has had 5 ear infections in a year! Should I remove those too?

My point had nothing to do with autism or the "risks" from not circing or the other things you mentioned in the last sentence. It was about the fact that we have to make decisions for our babies/children because they cannot make them for themselves.

[Jenandfam]

I agree on this to, I feel tht alot of mama's do this wether it is to do or not do something. There is always going to be a different in parenting tho. It could be me next time stating how i feel about a certin topic and then someone saying this to me who knows. I think we are ALL gulity of "judging" or stating our beliefs out loud towards another mom or dad one time or another.


:lmao: just sayin tht was kind of funny.


Again back to my first statment above i think EVERYONE judges everybody. In away I think you are judging djg903 but while she is saying your judging her she is doing right back to you. I feel tht way and I am a circ'ing mom and if i had 25 baby boys I would circ them all *BUT* tht IS my choice b/c I am the mother of them.

Errr.. How am I judging? All I'm doing is standing up for, and defending MY CHOICES I have as a parent. (While some will argue that circ is not my choice to make, blah blah blah...) whatever floats their boat. If you would have read my other post, you would have seen that I am neither FOR circ nor AGAINST it. I have not once said to the opposing party how they are wrong for not circ'ing their son's. Not once did I bash them :::shrugs:::

I have nothing but :loveshower: for (good, caring) mother's (everywhere), because like I said in my other post... we have the hardest job there is. We are raising the future. Doesn't get much harder than that!

~~~~~~~
[quote=hippydippymama;225780]I don't think this is a valid comparison. I don't vax my son. I suppose you are saying I am making the choice to expose him to diseases. Yes, he could catch measles somewhere....but he's not going to trip and fall on a knife that will cut off part of his penis.

You said it yourself...POTENTIALLY altering. The chance of a kid getting a dangerous disease, or a bad reaction from a vaccine, is small. Circing IS altering. I really don't understand this analogy.

~~~~~~~Also, you are STILL missing the main point of this argument.
Anti-circers believe that the boy should have the right to decide FOR HIMSELF. Circumcision can always be done as an adult. Most other decisions we make as parents can't exactly wait till they're 18, can they?


For the love of Pete, lol... I missed nothing. I get your point... Contrary to popular belief, I don't agree with that statement.

[Jenandfam]

[quote=zosiasmama;228722]One could argue it but anyone with any debating ability could shoot a hole right through that one. Come on this does not even equate to that. And for this lame argument I am pulling out something I have been saving for quite some time, so thanks cuz I have been itching to use it.

I am in no way equating vaccinating to circumcising. I am equating the CHOICES we have to make as parents. We have to CHOOSE if we want to vaccinate, just like we have to CHOOSE if we want to circ or not... Does not make either choice right or wrong. What's good for one, may not be good for the other, and vice versa.

And in both debates... the agrument is presented that you could be potentially altering them for the rest of their lives.

But whatever you feel you have to do to *attempt to make me look bad, go for it... It's all good with me :loveshower:

[clothbaby]

My point had nothing to do with autism or the "risks" from not circing or the other things you mentioned in the last sentence. It was about the fact that we have to make decisions for our babies/children because they cannot make them for themselves.

No you don't have to make that choice for them you CAN! But you don't HAVE TO they can do it when they are adults. And its not dangerous or potentially life threatening to leave it alone! Some things we vaccinate against can actually kill our babies. Foreskin never killed anyone :)


I am over the top with it though. I am totally against piercing ears as well. They are not my ears. I feel its a respect issue. It's not MY body. Sure if something can potentially kill my child I need to act. Even if that means a needle prick. But circ MEH it rarely happens anywhere else in the world and everyones fine. The foreskin has function. It's not MINE to remove.

Those are my thoughts. I have never once heard a of a GOOD reason that anyone found in their research to circ a newborn. Maybe you can tell me why to circ? Because really I don't get it!

[Jenandfam]

No you don't have to make that choice for them you CAN! But you don't HAVE TO they can do it when they are adults. And its not dangerous or potentially life threatening to leave it alone! Some things we vaccinate against can actually kill our babies. Foreskin never killed anyone :)


I am over the top with it though. I am totally against piercing ears as well. They are not my ears. I feel its a respect issue. It's not MY body. Sure if something can potentially kill my child I need to act. Even if that means a needle prick. But circ MEH it rarely happens anywhere else in the world and everyones fine. The foreskin has function. It's not MINE to remove.

Those are my thoughts. I have never once heard a of a GOOD reason that anyone found in their research to circ a newborn. Maybe you can tell me why to circ? Because really I don't get it!


:shakehead: Choices people... choices. We HAVE to make choices. While we don't HAVE to circ, we don't HAVE to vax... we do have to CHOOSE.

[Jenandfam]

Maybe you can tell me why to circ? Because really I don't get it!

I will not justify my reasons for circing. I do not feel I have to. Why? Because I am comfortable with my decision. ;)
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I really cant say anymore on this topic.
I have made my stance known... (although my stance is being misunderstood)... or picked apart to mean what the opposing party wants it to mean... (whichever is the case).

So, I will leave it at that :D

[clothbaby]

Maybe you can tell me why to circ? Because really I don't get it!

I will not justify my reasons for circing. I do not feel I have to. Why? Because I am comfortable with my decision. ;)
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I really cant say anymore on this topic.
I have made my stance known... (although my stance is being misunderstood)... or picked apart to mean what the opposing party wants it to mean... (whichever is the case).

So, I will leave it at that :D

Thats pretty much what I get anytime I ask. I have never heard a valid reason to do it. I guess maybe I never will!

Yes we do have to choose in this country? Not sure why the question was even asked to me though. He was not sick and it was not my penis... Seems odd!

[hippydippymama]

No you don't have to make that choice for them you CAN! But you don't HAVE TO they can do it when they are adults. And its not dangerous or potentially life threatening to leave it alone! Some things we vaccinate against can actually kill our babies. Foreskin never killed anyone :)



:yeahthat:

I guess it just comes down to whether or not you think your choice to do an elective, unnecessary procedure overrides your child's right to decide what to do with his genitals. If so then that's that. No point in discussing it if that is the justification.

[Sonny_Sunset]

I think circ is a very personal decision and people should keep the rude comments to themselves. Having said that, I plan to circ after doing alot of research but my decision has nothing to do with the way it looks circd or not

[thetoastercoaster]

My point had nothing to do with autism or the "risks" from not circing or the other things you mentioned in the last sentence. It was about the fact that we have to make decisions for our babies/children because they cannot make them for themselves.



But by circing you are making a choice for your children that SHOULD NOT BE YOUR CHOICE TO MAKE. it is a part of their body, let THEM decide when they are old enough to make the decision about their own body.

[mom2grrls]

:shakehead: Choices people... choices. We HAVE to make choices. While we don't HAVE to circ, we don't HAVE to vax... we do have to CHOOSE.>>>>>>>

You do not HAVE to choose circumcision for an infant. Like another poster said, the foreskin is not a danger and it can be removed at any time. Circumcision is most commonly done here in infancy but that doesn't make it the only time. CHILDHOOD vaccines have to be chosen on in childhood, hence the name;) That's pretty much the same for any choice you've brought up-feeding, sleeping, etc.-you can't put those off.

[hippydippymama]

You do not HAVE to choose circumcision for an infant. Like another poster said, the foreskin is not a danger and it can be removed at any time. Circumcision is most commonly done here in infancy but that doesn't make it the only time. CHILDHOOD vaccines have to be chosen on in childhood, hence the name;) That's pretty much the same for any choice you've brought up-feeding, sleeping, etc.-you can't put those off.

Yeah, you can't exactly sit down with Junior and say, "Which would you like: formula or breastmilk?" Cuz he wouldn't answer. You have to pick one or he'll starve to death.

[MisanthropeKitty]

i just cant believe this thread hasnt died yet... im getting tired of seeing it in my subscribed threads LOL

[Jenandfam]

I think circ is a very personal decision and people should keep the rude comments to themselves. Having said that, I plan to circ after doing alot of research but my decision has nothing to do with the way it looks circd or not

Looks played no part in my decision as well. That is stupid, IMO... because a penis is ugly regardless, lol.

[Maddie&Jake'sMom]

Looks played no part in my decision as well. That is stupid, IMO... because a penis is ugly regardless, lol.
Speak for yourself. I think my intact DS' penis is beautiful....as is my circ'ed DH's.

I hope you don't pass that negative feeling of ugliness of a body part on your DS.

[thetoastercoaster]

Speak for yourself. I think my intact DS' penis is beautiful....as is my circ'ed DH's.

I hope you don't pass that negative feeling of ugliness of a body part on your DS.


Aw cripes its not like she's gonna run around telling her kid "your penis is ugly" constantly.

You are probably the first person I've ever heard say a penis is beautiful. Frankly I'm glad all my junk is tucked up neat inside me. All that dangly shit has got to get in the way sometimes and yeah, a penis is ugly. Robin williams put it best, it looks like a snail wearing a helmet.. or if he's uncircumcized a snake wearing a sweater.

[frainfam]

Robin williams put it best, it looks like a snail wearing a helmet.. or if he's uncircumcized a snake wearing a sweater.

:toofunny:

[Maddie&Jake'sMom]

Aw cripes its not like she's gonna run around telling her kid "your penis is ugly" constantly.

You are probably the first person I've ever heard say a penis is beautiful. Frankly I'm glad all my junk is tucked up neat inside me. All that dangly poop has got to get in the way sometimes and yeah, a penis is ugly. Robin williams put it best, it looks like a snail wearing a helmet.. or if he's uncircumcized a snake wearing a sweater.
My point was...having that mindset around a child learning about body image isn't necessarily healthy. We should all want our kids to think they are beautiful. ALL parts of them.

[thetoastercoaster]

It's toke toke pass dear. And please pass this way cuz that has GOT to be some good shit.

[Maddie&Jake'sMom]

It's toke toke pass dear. And please pass this way cuz that has GOT to be some good poop.
As a former stoner, I know the rule.

But your comment makes no sense.

Is there something wrong with wanting my kids to not think parts of them are ugly?

Enlighten me, please.

[thetoastercoaster]

I see you're fairly new to CDN. In case you didn't know, Debates over here can get heated but at the end of the day we all pretty much agree to disagree. Almost every heated thread eventually ends with boobs, lol cats and jokes. This thread had been dead ten days when you had to throw your snarky "I hope you don't pass that negative feeling of ugliness of a body part on your DS." in there and revive the whole thing. No where did she say she was gonna tell her kids their penis' are ugly, I doubt she is going to tell her kids anything other than they are beautiful and perfect, no decent mother would tell their kid anything other than that. Having that mindset doesn't mean squat about a childs self image. I think my ass is ugly, it's too flat. I don't see my boys growing up with ass issues just because I don't like mine. We are allowed to have *gasp* opinions here! It's not diaper swappers! We don't all have to think alike! My toke toke pass comment was insinuating you must be high to not get the jokes being thrown out. We're not uptight bitches over here, You need to chill a bit - yeah maybe I got it backwards and you're not high yet but you could probably use a hit or two. Come in here, relax, take a seat next to me and jill, I'm pretty sure she's the last one the bong was passed to, if you don't want to smoke you can just set next to us and get a contact high (JILL WHERE ARE YOU SWEETHEART???) and loosen up a bit. Now excuse me while I go inform my two year old his penis is a snake wearing a sweater.

[Maddie&Jake'sMom]

I see you're fairly new to CDN. In case you didn't know, Debates over here can get heated but at the end of the day we all pretty much agree to disagree. Almost every heated thread eventually ends with boobs, lol cats and jokes. This thread had been dead ten days when you had to throw your snarky "I hope you don't pass that negative feeling of ugliness of a body part on your DS." in there and revive the whole thing. No where did she say she was gonna tell her kids their penis' are ugly, I doubt she is going to tell her kids anything other than they are beautiful and perfect, no decent mother would tell their kid anything other than that. Having that mindset doesn't mean squat about a childs self image. I think my ass is ugly, it's too flat. I don't see my boys growing up with ass issues just because I don't like mine. We are allowed to have *gasp* opinions here! It's not diaper swappers! We don't all have to think alike! My toke toke pass comment was insinuating you must be high to not get the jokes being thrown out. We're not uptight bitches over here, You need to chill a bit - yeah maybe I got it backwards and you're not high yet but you could probably use a hit or two. Come in here, relax, take a seat next to me and jill, I'm pretty sure she's the last one the bong was passed to, if you don't want to smoke you can just set next to us and get a contact high (JILL WHERE ARE YOU SWEETHEART???) and loosen up a bit. Now excuse me while I go inform my two year old his penis is a snake wearing a sweater.
Honey, I'm new to CDN, but a long time ex-member of DS. I know how debates works. I never agreed with a damn soul on DS...probably one of the reasons I got banned.

I do, however, enjoy paragraphs. :twitch:

However, SINCE I just got here, I jumped on this thread after having posted on it a week ago about our situation with family and to circ/not to circ debate. I hadn't read it since and wanted to read the comments after my post.

Why I felt the need to explain myself to you? I dont know. But don't pull this "I see you're new" shit to me. THAT, in itself, is the lamest possible thing to say to someone.

And no, I don't need to lighten up...I'm one of the least uptight people on here, DS, anywhere. But I believe kids shouldn't be made to think a part of them is ugly. OMG! I'm uptight because I believe that!

:overact:

[hippydippymama]

Can't we all just smoke a bong??

Damn this would be the perfect time to break out one of DH's bonghit smileys but I have no idea where they are on his computer.

Let's not get all snarky. Think your kid's junk is beautiful, ugly, whatever, as long as you aren't using your view of it to justify doing surgery on it, who cares???

[thetoastercoaster]

Honey, I'm new to CDN, but a long time ex-member of DS. I know how debates works. I never agreed with a damn soul on DS...probably one of the reasons I got banned.

I do, however, enjoy paragraphs. :twitch:

However, SINCE I just got here, I jumped on this thread after having posted on it a week ago about our situation with family and to circ/not to circ debate. I hadn't read it since and wanted to read the comments after my post.

Why I felt the need to explain myself to you? I dont know. But don't pull this &quot;I see you're new&quot; poop to me. THAT, in itself, is the lamest possible thing to say to someone.

And no, I don't need to lighten up...I'm one of the least uptight people on here, DS, anywhere. But I believe kids shouldn't be made to think a part of them is ugly. OMG! I'm uptight because I believe that!

:overact: Ahhhh that explains alot. This ain't ds honey. Thats EXACTLY why I said you're new here, I wasn't sure if you were a ds transplant or not. CDN is a whole different world. Obviously you ARE uptight when you're going to get uppity at someone cracking a joke. When a thread has been dead for a few days we don't tend to revive it, much less when it's been dead 9 days. Was posting on it just to get snotty to her about saying penis' are ugly and how you hope she doesn't screw up her kids with that mindset really necessary? And do NOT say "oh i didn't say that" because thats pretty much what you said, you just prettied it up like they all tend to do on ds. And how do you know you are one of the least uptight people on here if you are new to here? Because I can name a whole bunch of people that are obviously much less uptight than you are. You ARE new here, just because you aren't new to diapering boards doesn't mean you know squat about this one. This ain't yo' same ole diapering board. (hey mom can we get that as a slogan?) Oh and :twitch: right back atcha babes. and a :boobna: for good measure.
~~~~~~~
Can't we all just smoke a bong??

Damn this would be the perfect time to break out one of DH's bonghit smileys but I have no idea where they are on his computer.

Let's not get all snarky. Think your kid's junk is beautiful, ugly, whatever, as long as you aren't using your view of it to justify doing surgery on it, who cares???

Hey baby!!! Whnen you find the bonghit smileys I wanna see them!!! and why the hell is my reply stuff all goofed??? i had to enter the bold html manually and it won't put the spaces when i hit enter!!! my computer hates me!!!

[Maddie&Jake'sMom]

I think you've mistaken me for some newbie internet message board folk.

That's too bad.

I've been CDing DD for 2 years. I've been online for over 10.

Do the math. But thanks for the lesson on how you're so cool because you've been here longer. I feel like I'm in 3rd grade after reading your post.

Considered me schooled in that. :sillycheer:

[TheRetroBabyMama]

Ooookaaay! Ugly penises (penii??) aside, someone at DS said that she planned to circ because someone she knew had to be circ'd at 66 and she didn't want her son to go through that. I was like "if you circ your newborn HE WILL BE GOING THROUGH THAT". It was seriously the dumbest argurment EVER. My mind went *crack*.

Then she got mad at me because I poked holes in her logic and she said I was personally attacking her.

DS is fun. :rolleyes:

[Danni]

Yo Toaster, it is no bog deal that this thread was revived...it is one of my favorite topics to add my 2 cents to so i love it when it comes back up.

So let's all just chill, pass that e-bong my way, cuz I'm jonesin and Jill won't give it up.
~~~~~~~
Ooookaaay! Ugly penises (penii??) aside, someone at DS said that she planned to circ because someone she knew had to be circ'd at 66 and she didn't want her son to go through that. I was like "if you circ your newborn HE WILL BE GOING THROUGH THAT". It was seriously the dumbest argurment EVER. My mind went *crack*.

Then she got mad at me because I poked holes in her logic and she said I was personally attacking her.

DS is fun. :rolleyes:

But how could you resist that...it is waaaay too tempting to poke fun at the dummies!

[hippydippymama]

Yo Toaster, it is no bog deal that this thread was revived...it is one of my favorite topics to add my 2 cents to so i love it when it comes back up.

So let's all just chill, pass that e-bong my way, cuz I'm jonesin and Jill won't give it up.


http://www.rollitup.org/images/smilies/bong7bp.gif

[Snangel]

It's toke toke pass dear. And please pass this way cuz that has GOT to be some good poop.

Hmmmm isn't it puff puff pass?

Pass that sh*t this way...or better yet come down here, and have some of mine, I am in BC Canada eh!

[Shopaholic]

Ooookaaay! Ugly penises (penii??) aside, someone at DS said that she planned to circ because someone she knew had to be circ'd at 66 and she didn't want her son to go through that. I was like "if you circ your newborn HE WILL BE GOING THROUGH THAT". It was seriously the dumbest argurment EVER. My mind went *crack*.

Then she got mad at me because I poked holes in her logic and she said I was personally attacking her.

DS is fun. :rolleyes:


A friend of mine said the same- her father had to be circed in his 60s and his wife was urging me to circ if we had a boy b/c "it was so painful and he was in agony as it was healing". I do think babies and children heal faster from stuff, but it doesn't mean that its anyless painful when it happens!

[Jenandfam]

:toofunny:


I will never look at a penis the same ever again :toofunny:
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the above comment was supposed to be quoting the quote by that Robert somebody :)

[Jenandfam]

Oh and just to set the record straight... I will never tell my child that any part of his/her body is ugly. Because he is a BOY that will someday grow up to be a MAN (and we all know how MEN are), he will probably think his penis is God's gift to women, and will bask himself in the aweness of it... so I really don't think I need to worry about him thinking his penis is ugly :)